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When do I craft to MAX Skill ups.. The AnswerFollow

#1 Nov 03 2004 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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Gone forever

Edited, Thu May 4 09:05:56 2006 by Purplenv
#2 Nov 03 2004 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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When you say "opposite day to crystal (strong against)" do you mean the crystal is strong against the day, or the day is strong against the crystal? So like would that -1 be using a Fire Crystal on Watersday or a Water Crystal on Firesday?

Thanks
#3 Nov 03 2004 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is good stuff!!! I've been wanting to start skilling up again, but I was gonna try to figure the whole Skillup thing first. Now I don't have to.

I'm guessing this is all theory, based no doubt on countless observations. So I'll take a stab at a specific example and see if I get "yes" "don't know" "possibly" or "most likely."

Here's my hypothetical question:

I'm in the expensive arrow stage and I'm at 2 levels below the cap for Demon Arrows. The arrowheads are expensive and sometimes hard to come by. I already know from leveling the other arrows that going from 2 below the cap to capping produces an UNGODLY amount of arrows. So I want the maximum amount of skillups and the least amount of arrows to offload.

So I produce the following formula:

Skill Cap (69) - My Skill (67) - (New moon + Darksday)

resulting in:

69 - 67 - (-2) = 4


Would this, in theory, put me back in the "sweet spot" of skill-ups?


Rate-up in advance. \(^o^)/
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#4 Nov 03 2004 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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OK Here's an example to make sure I understand. My leathercrafting is currently 13 and I want to take it cap, all the while producing max skillups. I came up with something like this:

Lizard Cesti - Leather 17 - Earth Crystal

Level 13: Craft on Earthsday (+1), Face South (+.5), New Moon (-1), No Guild Support (+0) = 0.5
x = 17 - 13 - 0.5 = 3.5

Level 14: Craft on Earthsday (+1), Face Southeast (-0.5), Half Moon (+0), No Guild Support (+0) = 0.5
x = 17 - 14 - 0.5 = 2.5

Level 15: Craft on Windsday (-1), Face Southeast (-0.5), Half Moon (+0), No Guild Support (+0) = -1.5
x = 17 - 15 + 1.5 = 3.5

Level 16: Craft on Windsday (-1), Face Southeast (-0.5), Half Moon (+0), No Guild Support (+0) = -1.5
x = 17 - 16 + 1.5 = 2.5

Is this right?

Edited, Wed Nov 3 12:19:42 2004 by divisortheory
#5 Nov 03 2004 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Awesome post! It's funny, because the +/- thing is similar to a simple technique to count cards in blackjack. I guess that would be for another post. Excellent job, I can't wait to test it out^^
#6 Nov 03 2004 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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Eruntalon the Wise wrote:

I'm in the expensive arrow stage and I'm at 2 levels below the cap for Demon Arrows. The arrowheads are expensive and sometimes hard to come by. I already know from leveling the other arrows that going from 2 below the cap to capping produces an UNGODLY amount of arrows. So I want the maximum amount of skillups and the least amount of arrows to offload.

So I produce the following formula:

Skill Cap (69) - My Skill (67) - (New moon + Darksday)

resulting in:

69 - 67 - (-2) = 4


Don't forget about the other factors. For example, if you're facing South and have no guild support, you need to subtract 1 from that number to give you x=3. Still the sweet spot, and perhaps even better than the outside of the sweetspot (e.g. either 2 or 4).
#7 Nov 03 2004 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry for another post, but I'm curious how:

1) Moghouse elemental energy
2) Other days of the week besides Opposite / Same
3) Other directions besides Opposite / Same
4) Other moon phases besides New / Half / Full

affect the formula as well.

For moon phases, it's probably just a regular gradient.

Moon% / 50 - 1

So like if the moon is at 100%, you have 100/50 - 1 = +1, and if the moon is at 0% y ou have 0/50 - 1 = -1, and if the moon is at 50% you have 50/50 - 1 = 0.

But this way you could figure out other percents, like if the moon was at 75% it would be 75/50 - 1 = +0.5, etc

Edited, Wed Nov 3 12:24:48 2004 by divisortheory
#8 Nov 03 2004 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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Great post Purple. I often kick myself for setting up too many good variables because I am nervous about losing materials and then I wind up crafting away with almost no skill gain.

Another factor worth mentioning is moghancement. It doesn't affect your rate of success or skill gain (that I am aware of aside from desynthesis) but it does have an effect on the amount of materials you lose when you fail.

I have not done any controlled experiements with these moghancements, but the key item themselves explicitly state that you will lose fewer materials when crafting with the corresponding crystal. I noticed a difference personally even with just faint energy in my moghouse. I found this effect invaluable. Losing gold ingots to failures makes me cry :(

Just note that some furnishings with the same element will not always give you the same moghancement. For example furniture with the water element can give you water or fishing moghancemnet. Earth can give you earth or gardening. It depends on the item. It would be best to do some research online before you spend a lot of money on furniture.

Here are some of the furnishings I found that will minimize material loss:

Fire Crystal: Cupboard, Bookshelf, Red Jar
Wind Crystal: Wicker Box
Earth Crystal: Yellow Jar

There are lots more.

Good Luck!
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#9 Nov 03 2004 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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So you're saying that guild support makes it harder to get skillups?
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#10 Nov 03 2004 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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That's a very interesting theory...

I'm curious. How did you draw up those figures? They seem like they would fit well, but it could actually be double those values (or half) for all we know.

Still, rate up for a nice guess!

[Edit]Just as an example to work with:

Rainbow Threads = 78 cap. Current skill = 72 + 1 (based off of your information, the glasses I wear shouln't affect the "sum of values" section).

That leaves 5 points with which to work so...

Paid Synth Support will lower that number to 3. This is already a good setting to be at so we need to somehow cancel out the other effects or simply avoid them altogether. Hmm... maybe I should make a trip back to Windy...[/Edit]

Edited, Wed Nov 3 13:22:41 2004 by Deila
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#11 Nov 03 2004 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, my internet at work went down almost instantly after posting this, sorry for not gettting back sooner.

I updated the day strong against notation. It is that the Day is strong against the Crystal to produce a -1.


For Eruntalon's example, and divisortheory's reply, yes all factors need to be considered, before you have a "X".
For factors you want to negate, or leave at zero, make sure you are not in one of the two deciding criteria. For days, if you are not in same day, or on the day stong against the crystal, or lights day, or darks day, I consider it to be zero effect. Similarly works for direction and moon phase.

So I produce the following formula:
Skill Cap (69) - My Skill (67) - (New moon + Darksday)
resulting in:
69 - 67 - (-2) = 4

The above is correct as long as the other factors such as direction and synth support are zero. BTW, in this instance I would personally want a "X" closer to 2 then 4, because of material costs and rarety.

Divisortheory, your calculations look perfect to skill up on Lizard Cesti to level 17. Now you just need to apply to the Actual criteria you find when online. You defiantely understand what I was saying.

I did provide in the initial post in the notes regarding moon phase, that the number to apply varies with each day, and gave an example. If the notation is says Full or New moon, I consider it a full +1 or -1 rather then the 95% and so on.

1) Moghouse elemental energy
I personally have not played with this as a factor.
With no elemental energy this factor would be 0.
It would be interesting to see how much of a factory this could play in crafting results.

2) Other days of the week besides Opposite / Same
Opposite, same, light, dark will all have numbers to apply, the rest I consider zero.

3) Other directions besides Opposite / Same
Similar to days, but since it is half as effective even at its strongest criteria, if the direction is not same or opposite, I consider it zero.

4) Other moon phases besides New / Half / Full
As stated moon is a fully variable number anywhere between -1, and +1.

#12 Nov 03 2004 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
That's a very interesting theory...

I'm curious. How did you draw up those figures? They seem like they would fit well, but it could actually be double those values (or half) for all we know.

Still, rate up for a nice guess!


As assumed by Eruntalon, this is my theory based on my observations. As you can see in my sig, I have done a fair amount of crafting.

Over that time, I have drawn many conclusions, some worked, some did not. This theory is a result of my almost year of crafting. Unfortunately I don't keep hard numbers, as that would reduce the pleasure I can find in pumping out some arrows, or glass fibers.

I have posted this theory in previous posts, as replies, and had nothing but positive responses, from other independant testers. I figured it was time to put it in a thread that can be easily bookmarked and/or found.

I would not think the actual factors to be double or half of my guess', but in reality could be a more random number that is not as easily defined. Since SE will never release actual formulas all we can do is GUESS.

Edited, Wed Nov 3 13:27:56 2004 by Purplenv
#13 Nov 03 2004 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So you're saying that guild support makes it harder to get skillups?


I personally have always stopped getting guild support when I'm 4 levels away from an items cap. Guild support is designed to let crafters stay closer to that 4-5 level sweet spot while leveling longer. In my experience it's been best to get payed support until your 5 levels out then get free support for 1 level.

To test this, get payed support while skilling up on an item and only 1 level away from its cap. The skillups won't stop comming alltogether but they will be extremely rare. Much more so than if you wouldn't have bothered with support.
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#14 Nov 03 2004 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
You can probably determine what the +skill is for free and paid support by playing around with the maximum crafting gap. There are reports of people unable to try a recipe without synthesis support that they are able to try with synthesis support.

I don't personally buy the direction-facing theory. I also have never seen break/skill data to back up any day-of-crafting theories (only HQ data).

Personally, I find my best skill-up results happen between 4 and 8 levels from cap, regardless of moon phase or day, with advanced support.
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#15 Nov 03 2004 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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One more idea:

Guild point items are also one of "The Factors"

For example if I craft with my Goldsmithing glasses on, I should add +1 to the factors listed above.

Thoughts?
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#16 Nov 03 2004 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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^^
Guild items that add skill definately need to be considered as "Your Skill". Notation was added.

Quote:
I don't personally buy the direction-facing theory. I also have never seen break/skill data to back up any day-of-crafting theories (only HQ data).

Personally, I find my best skill-up results happen between 4 and 8 levels from cap, regardless of moon phase or day, with advanced support.


You would craft Demon Arrows (if you were to level woodworking further), with a skill of 61, a 8 level gap, and do this on Darksday of a new moon, and not thing twice about possibly waiting till Earthday and a full moon?

Edited, Wed Nov 3 14:01:14 2004 by Purplenv
#17 Nov 03 2004 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
One more idea:

Guild point items are also one of "The Factors"

For example if I craft with my Goldsmithing glasses on, I should add +1 to the factors listed above.

Thoughts?


I'm on the fence with this question.

I only recently recieved my Smithy's Apron, and have only leveld smithing 1 level while wearing it so my observations have been limited.

I can always speculate however, so here goes.

If indeed the Guild point items do play a roll in the skill up formula, it would only negate some uses for snythesis support. On the other hand it would also free crafters from always skilling up while sitting at the guilds. Giving us the ability to craft for skill gain in more convenient places (Jeuno or a city without your particular guild). Thats almost a non-issue though, to most of us, as we would want to craft at our particular guild and probably have mule characters in other cities to buy our supplies.

So to summarize: I'm not sure. ^^
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#18 Nov 03 2004 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
PurpleEnv, without a second thought. I've never noticed any impact of days or moons on my skill-up sessions.

Though, I'd probably do Bodkin Arrows rather than Demons.
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#19 Nov 03 2004 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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I'm going to write a small Windows App that allows you to enter stuff like your level, item max, item crystal, day, and moon phase and it will tell you what to do to get max skillup. Should be done in an hour or two unless boss comes over and Smiley: glare over my shoulder
#20 Nov 03 2004 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm going to write a small Windows App that allows you to enter stuff like your level, item max, item crystal, day, and moon phase and it will tell you what to do to get max skillup.


Thats a great idea. Just remember that the formula variables could in reality be very different then what Purplenv has suggested. I think that he is pretty close to the correct numbers, however, as my experience and data support this formula for the most part.
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#21 Nov 03 2004 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Divisortheory,

Looking forward to the app.

I personally think the best application would be:

Input skills,
Input recipe
Input day
Input Moon

Output what of the two factors you can control at any time you need to apply to be in the best skill zone.

Since you likely have a recipe you want to do (as the guides do a good job of narrowing the options of effective recipes for leveling), and you will want to make it asap after entering the current factors. The most usefull data would be when running that recipe should you get paid support, free support, and what direction to face. Since with these factors you can swing the "X" by +2.5 all the way to -0.5 and steps between.

Glad to see others are also have a productive day at work. :)
#22 Nov 03 2004 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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in case you cant fiind it, here the direction someone gave me:


Crystal -> Direction

Water -> W
Wind -> SE
Lightning -> SW
Ice -> E
Fire -> NW
Earth -> S
Dark -> N
Light -> NE


hope this help ^^
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#23 Nov 03 2004 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You would craft Demon Arrows (if you were to level woodworking further), with a skill of 61, a 8 level gap, and do this on Darksday of a new moon, and not thing twice about possibly waiting till Earthday and a full moon?


Thinking about that makes me cry.

While I'm only at 200+ Skills, I'd have to agree that Day + Moon is a significant factor when dealing with large gaps. Personally I beleive it to be stronger than synth support.

I do a lot of bridge synths, so i am usually 1-4 levels below the caps. With that in mind it's been a long time since i skilled up on any day besides darksday or crystal weak day. With 24 synths, It averages to a difference of 1.5 skill levels compared to 1.0 skill levels. (Pre-50)

However i simply refuse to believe in the directional theory.


Great post and a rate up!
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#24 Nov 03 2004 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow... this is very nicely done. As a 72 cook, my next venture was planned out to be an item that caps 9 levels above my current. From your formula, I should realistically get another level or two under my belt before attempting. With all the ideal conditions (I don't have any + cooking gear) I would still be at a 5.

What's nice about this is it can give you options. Lining up a day and a moon can be very challenging when putting it up against your own schedule (both in game and RL), your LS's schedule, etc.

Thanks for passing this info along.

Raev
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#25 Nov 03 2004 at 5:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Very interesting..once I round I get some gold nuggets (hopefully) from this next harvest of cuttings, I may try a bit of this out...here's to skillup!
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#26 Nov 03 2004 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a very rough, not thoroughly tested version of my app ready. Problem is, I don't have a file server. If anyone wants to make this available, let me know and I'll email you the file. My goal was to whip this out as fast as possible, not to make it pretty or have "robust" or "high quality" code. That's not to say it doesn't work, because it does from the limited testing I've done.

Anyway just give me a private message and I'll email it to you. Probably later tonight or tomorrow since I'ma bout to head home from work.
#27 Nov 03 2004 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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one more thing,

Quote:
Best to be within 5 levels of cap so that skill ups can still be gotten from failures


Does anyone have any more information on this? To my knowledge I have never skilled on a fail over 5 levels (6+) away. I was considering it was more of a gradual scale, as opposed to an abrupt cut-off.

Recent Threads (Eruntalon) and past info (41.1 = 41.9) show that SE favors abrupt cut-offs.

Also, can the "skill off fails" be altered in the same manner? I.E. Day + moon..
I was under the impression it was based upon base skill.

Edited, Wed Nov 3 19:44:22 2004 by slgray
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#28 Nov 03 2004 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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1. ^^ i'd be HAPPY to test out your app. I just recently got Utsusemi: Ichi and once it sells i'm going on a smithing skillup spree. I'm currently lvl 28 (around 28.6 to .8) And doing Rusty Picks -> War Picks.

From the direction, i can't say it does or doesn't help but i was synthing these facing N/E-E (more east than north east but not quite east) and i was working on a "if one synth breaks i'm broke for tonight" budget lol.

I did 14 picks before i failed.

2. www.megaworm.com IS YOUR FRIEND! ^^ FREE UPLOADS! If its over 5 megs just be prepared to wait like 5 minutes to upload (x.x i know) but the downloading is pretty fast. This can be all accredited to my friend, megaworm. XD.
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#29 Nov 04 2004 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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You can get skill ups off of a failure if you are 5 levels below cap. I was making gold rings (60) and my skill is 55. I got +.2 from a failure and lost a gold ingot >_<
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#30 Nov 04 2004 at 12:56 AM Rating: Decent
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if you email it to me at zslome [at] gmail.com I will have the program up ASAP^^

This is a very interesting theory, I'd like to find some way to test it further. The fact that so many people agree (generally) with it also helps.

I'm about to do a 10-level bridge synth, so anything helps. :)
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#31 Nov 04 2004 at 5:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure if I entirely agree with your formula with respect to guild support.

I was doing some beginning cooking, and making orange juice.

I had no problem getting skill ups when I had skill 8 and 9, and paid guild support. I didn't get any more skill ups once I hit skill 10 (though I admit I didn't do many, as I moved onto other synths).

As orange juice has a cap of 10 according to this site, then as I don't think I was on a special day, then I should have been in the redundant zone, but was still getting skill-ups.
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#32 Nov 04 2004 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm not sure if I entirely agree with your formula with respect to guild support.

I was doing some beginning cooking, and making orange juice.

I had no problem getting skill ups when I had skill 8 and 9, and paid guild support. I didn't get any more skill ups once I hit skill 10 (though I admit I didn't do many, as I moved onto other synths).

As orange juice has a cap of 10 according to this site, then as I don't think I was on a special day, then I should have been in the redundant zone, but was still getting skill-ups.


This theory becomes much more evident at higher levels.
Bellow level ten, I would say just pump out whatever recipe you can succeed at, but when you are approaching 60, and on average need 30+ synths to make one level, this formula could help you do it in 24.

Plus since you can't give any day, moon, direction facing data for your crafting at level 8 and 9, you could still have gotten yourself back out of the redundant zone by being in Darksday, and a new moon, not to mention the direction you were facing, wich likely was somewhat random.

If you have 10 levels of cooking to base this theory on, you need to work on a few more crafts, through some of the harder skill zones, and then I will be more then happy to see what you think of the formula.



Quote:
Does anyone have any more information on this? To my knowledge I have never skilled on a fail over 5 levels (6+) away. I was considering it was more of a gradual scale, as opposed to an abrupt cut-off.

Recent Threads (Eruntalon) and past info (41.1 = 41.9) show that SE favors abrupt cut-offs.

Also, can the "skill off fails" be altered in the same manner? I.E. Day + moon..
I was under the impression it was based upon base skill.


The 5 level gap maximum to skill up on fails is nut an "X" value. It is just a solid calculation between recipe cap and your current skill (including guild items, I would believe). I will add a note to that section to maybe clear this up.
#33 Nov 04 2004 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I like the idea of having this formula, and I have begun to test it out. However, I don't see that this formula has any supporting evidence. Yes it makes sense, yes it might generally work, but there is little evidence to support your numbers (i.e. does the direction you face really matter .5 or maybe it matters .25 or 1?)

Also, I'm curious how this formula works for desynthing because as I have passed the skill cap for desynthing some items I still fail a lot just curious on your thoughts there.

Even though this sounded like a rant I'm still rating you up simply because crafting needs a formula to start somewhere. Thanks for posting this.
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#34 Nov 04 2004 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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^
I thought it would be clear that this is not to be applied to Desynthesis. Guess I was wrong. I will add desynthesis to the area talking about fishing not being included, so it will also be discounted.

This has much more to do with skill ups, then with success or HQ. The main goals with desynth is sucess and HQ. You can skill up on desynth, but I see no good reason why you would try this for actually leveling skills.

As I conceded above, this is only a theory based on my experience. I found myself basically doing this exact formula in my head whenever I was deciding what to make, or helping a LS mate decide. Now rather then using my experience directly, by asking, anyone can take what I have in my head, and apply it on their own.

If raw, conclusive data is provided, the "Factor" values can definately be adjusted. This is far from carved in stone, and can change to support facts as they become evident.
#35 Nov 04 2004 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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To all the people that responded with email addresses, I just got into the office. Purplenv send me a private message with an email address, and since he was the first to start the thread anyway I figured it made most sense to send it to him first. That way he can check if it works like its supposed to first. lol. Anyway I imagine he'll check it out soon and hopefully get it on the web shortly after.

EDIT: Purplenv doesn't have webspace to make it available, so i'll send it to Kuraiou instead. I imagine he'll post here when it's available. I may make source code available for free at a later date if people want it, but it's nothing spectacular.

Edited, Thu Nov 4 12:01:20 2004 by divisortheory
#36 Nov 04 2004 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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So my question is what about skilling up post 60? I've seen MANY testimonials that skillups come much slower after a certain high level (usually either described as 55-65) could that be another variable?

Or does this formulae explain it? (i've seen a lot of guides suggesting fairly large skill gaps, meaning we'd be out of the sweet spot)

/em wishes he could get access to the server source.

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#37 Nov 04 2004 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Divisortheory's app works pretty good.
You would need to make yourself familiar with this theory before using it, but could help someone new to the concept. Deffinately not something to hand over to someone clueless about crafting.

Thekingmob,

Skill ups definately, drastically change at lvl 50.
I am happy to say that since the formula doesn't output a set number of skill ups, but rather, a likely hood of receiving the ups, this can still be applied post lvl 50 crafting.

IMO this is the point where it is even more important, as you can process a stack of material with no skill ups before it goes from being unlucky, to a possibly non-ideal crafting situation.
I recently crafted scorpion arrows in a single RL day, from lvl 50-58. There was a deffinate "Hot Spot" that was not at maximum difficulty, and not at the easiest. This was one of my final observations that helped support this theory, in my mind. Unfortunately as I stated, I do not record hard data.

Edited, Thu Nov 4 12:30:44 2004 by Purplenv
#38 Nov 04 2004 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a little confused. This number we are getting, is it to show that a time is 3.5x better than another or is this number matching us with your chart and putting us in the prime skill zone?

Also, although I agree with most of your reasoning as I use most of this myself, I recently argued with another crafter to see if new moon or full moon was better for crafting. Now although I agree that 90 synths is a minute number of synths to base any reasoning on, I will share my experience from yesterday accoriding you your chart.

Mulsum Cap 56
Skill lvl 55.4

Lvl 55, Craft on Firesday(-1), Facing NW (-0.5), New Moon (-1)
x = 56-55+2.5 = 3.5 No Support

I synthed a total of 25 synths and recieved a total of .2 skill ups. The normal for that many for be about .8 skill ups.

Then almost directly after, on earthsday I switched to Pet Food Zeta

Pet Food Zeta Cap 59
Skill lvl 55.6
Lvl 56 Craft on Earthsday(+1), Facing Southwest (-.05), New Moon (-1) No Support
59-56+.5 = 3.5

From a total of of 25 synths I recieved a total of .2 skill ups.

Now the other day I synthed Green Ribbons.

Green Ribbons Cap 62
Skill lvl 54
Lvl 54 Craft on Windsday(+1), Facing Southeast (+.5), 50% Moon about. Advanced Support (+2)

62-54-3.5 = 11.5

Yet I managed 1.8 skill up from 36 synths.

Pass 50 I synth in bunches of stacks of 3 usually in hopes of gaining 1 lvl. Which has consistenly been my average.

I believe that if you are closer to cap that then opposite day, direction etc...pull you back into the the sweet spot range.
If you are far away from cap and use same day, direction, etc...that also pulls you back into the sweet spot range. I agree with you sweet spot range of 2-4, though I would extend it to 5.

So if I were to look at my data in my point of view for the Gree Ribbons.

64-54+3.5 = 4.5

That would place me in my sweet spot zone.

I showed the cooking situation because I believe it was the New Moon that made by skill ups so horrible which is also contrary to your belief and my previous belief. My friend, a lvl 89 leatherworker, only synths on Full Moon and he just achieved .7 skill up to bring him to 90 on what seems minimal tries.

Even if you disagree with my reasoning, my examples show that nothing is full proof and the number one chance of getting skill ups is based on pure luck.

Hope this helped.

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I Wish Rate Ups Worked Like Skill Ups.

I am DA crafter.
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Guild Items:
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#39 Nov 04 2004 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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TheConnoisseur,

I think you typed this up to fast as some of your final numbers are messed.

As for the first 2 examples. I can't explain your low amount of skill ups. Other then the random factor of crafting. At 50+ crafting the randomness of crafting can really take a tole.
Since when crafting for skill ups it is impossible to hold the factors constant (because you are increasing yur own skill) this theory will be very difficult to disprove, or solidify as fact.

As for the green ribbon example, you have typos in both calculations.

Quote:
Green Ribbons Cap 62
Skill lvl 54
Lvl 54 Craft on Windsday(+1), Facing Southeast (+.5), 50% Moon about. Advanced Support (+2)

62-54-3.5 = 11.5

Yet I managed 1.8 skill up from 36 synths.


The formula as above does not equal 11.5, but rather 4.5, which supports the theory. (You got the total right the second time you typed it, but misskeyed 62 as 64)

I will admit to doing most of my skill up crafting at 50% moon or higher, and using the other factors to put me in the sweet spot. This is for no other reason except habit.

New moon may infact have larger detrimental effects to skill ups that exist outside this formula, but I don't believe we have the data to prove or disprove it as of yet.

Examples prior to level 50, may be able to clear some things up, as the effects would be more dramatic.

Edited, Thu Nov 4 13:47:26 2004 by Purplenv
#40 Nov 04 2004 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Doh my bad. So we agree. hehe. That works.
____________________________
Caubont
35 Rdm/17 Blm - Retired lvler
Garuda

I Wish Rate Ups Worked Like Skill Ups.

I am DA crafter.
Current GP:Goldsmithing: 28000
Guild Items:
Key Item: Lumberjack
Smithy's Mitts
5 Down 3 To Go

Smithing 60.4 Woodworking 60.0 Leathercraft 60.0 Cooking 60.0 Alchemy 60.0 Clothcraft 56.5
Bonecraft 55.9 Goldsmithing 47.2 Fishing 23.4
#41 Nov 04 2004 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Yep.

I could swear that I have had sucessful new moon skill up sessions though.

Just last night I was doing Glass fibers.

61 cap
57ish-58.2 skill
Darksday
New moon (was close to the 0% last night after work)
Got Synth support
Faced NW

So in the lvl 57 range my formula would be.

61-57-(-1-1+2+.5)=3.5

I believe in just over 12 synths (14 I think) I leveled from 57.7 to 58.2

Total of +0.5 in 14 synths is pretty good in my books, past lvl 50. I would have done more, but the flint stone price was getting high.
#42 Nov 04 2004 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I notice that you cover the same day and opposite days to the crystal, but what about the day that the crystal is strong to? Would that make it a +2 factor?
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#43 Nov 04 2004 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
in case you cant fiind it, here the direction someone gave me:


Crystal -> Direction

Water -> W
Wind -> SE
Lightning -> SW
Ice -> E
Fire -> NW
Earth -> S
Dark -> N
Light -> NE


hope this help ^^


Is this the direction we need to face to make it harder
Quote:
+.5 Same direction as crystal

or
Quote:
-.5 Opposite direction to crystal (direction strong against crystal)


Never heard about this direction thing until now....
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#44 Nov 04 2004 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
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In case you all missed it, divisortheory, resident programming guru, wrote up a quick program to help calculate.

It's pretty useful as is; it can use some tweaking, but for an early version it's quite complete.

It can be found at http://www.ilstu.edu/~zslome/SkillupCalculator.zip -- please be kind to my bandwidth, guys, I really don't want the university shutting me down ;_;
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#45 Nov 04 2004 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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BTW, to answer the inevitable question before it appears, NO it does not have any viruses
#46 Nov 04 2004 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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I've cooked up a web page based on Pyogene's Vana'diel timer which calculates the crafting difficulty for a range of days.

See this post for details and please post any feedback in that thread.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=24&mid=1099614480690244507&num=0
#47 Nov 04 2004 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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I made a Mirror to my uploader (unlimited bandwidth so don't worry) so download away. ^^ Fun fun fun!

Anyway as soon as Ichi sells i'm gonna test it for bug and workyness.

Heres the link: http://www.megaworm.com/uploads/SkillupCalculator.zip

Edited, Thu Nov 4 20:58:11 2004 by Gourry
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#48 Nov 05 2004 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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I would expect paid support to be +3, since that's what people have said it adds to your skill (measured by allowing you to attempt higher-level synths).

Eruntalon's HQ research shows a large increase in HQ on darkday and the weak day for the crystal, and a smaller increase on the guild holiday. It also shows a large decrease in HQ on lightday and the strong day for the crystal, and a smaller decrease on the crystal day.

I would guess that to translate to
darkday/weak day: -1
guild holiday: -0.5
crystal day: +0.5
lightday/strong day: +1

Also, in my (limited) testing, darkday seems better for HQ on dark crystals, and worse for success, at least for Cooking (which has its guild holiday on darkday). So I don't think the usual rules apply.

Perhaps the moon influence is linear, something like (moon%/50)-1.

Also, others have said that the high risk zone, 6-8, is good for synths where the ingredients are much more valuable than the finished product; if you pump up your moghancement for that crystal, you have a good chance of keeping the ingredients on a break but still skilling up.


Edited, Fri Nov 5 11:27:50 2004 by Valyana
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#49 Nov 05 2004 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok I so far like this equation in my limited testing. I was wondering though? Does anyone find it possible to use the equation for HQ's and success rates? Or is that an entirely different equation?

EDIT: I wanted to give an example:

Alchemy Beeswax Cap at lvl 5
Let's assume best conditions for HQ (Firesday, Full Moon, and paid support)

(5-25)-(1+1+2+.5)= -24.5

Edited, Fri Nov 5 12:19:28 2004 by Belo
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#50 Nov 05 2004 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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This equation can not be used for HQ chance, IMO. A similar equation to help with HQ could be used, but I feel the HQ formula would be more linear, rather then bell shaped as this is.

HQ and success are completely different things from skilling up on a recipe, IMO. So you need to look at them differently.

I will not use solid, HQ or Success data to rewrite the equation as it can't be applied the same.

If the 5-7 range for X caused failures every time, but rewarded skill ups 90%, then this would be the hot zone, for skill ups (This is not the case).
#51 Nov 05 2004 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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so basically the difference between HQ'ing and Skilling up is like this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/Gourry_Inverse7/untitled.gif

Edited, Fri Nov 5 15:09:55 2004 by Gourry
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