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Another cut-n-paste.Follow

#1 Mar 07 2006 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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...And on Hitler, no less! Over before it's begun. I posted about this on another thread, but for those of you that are uniformed, here is the synopsis. A teacher in Aurora, CO compared some of the propaganda terminlogy (my label, not his) used by Hitler and Bush in his social studies class. A student recorded it, took it to a local radio station, and now the teacher is on administrative leave until the school can determine if he violated a policy requiring that every point of view be balanced by an opposing one when presented to students.

Upon reading this, I became truly worried. The SO is studying to become a Social Studies teacher, and it is truly sobering to see that children can't be challenged to think critically about propaganda, jingoism, and other political mechanisms and machinery without it being considered an affront to the very democracy that affords us these rights.

Fixed to reflect a previously unknown Aurora.



Edited, Tue Mar 7 15:17:42 2006 by Atomicflea
#2 Mar 07 2006 at 3:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurora, CO.

Not as cool as the Illinois version if only for its lack of Wayne & Garth.
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#3 Mar 07 2006 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Aurora, CO.

Not as cool as the Illinois version if only for its lack of Wayne & Garth.

Fixed!
#4 Mar 07 2006 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
I heard parts of the recorded conversation this morning. From what I heard, the student recording it was actually engaging the teacher in debate to get him to continue with his comparision.

The teacher plainly stated on several occassions that he was not trying to tell them what to think but he just wanted to spark a debate. He thought this particular student was actually interested and participating in a debate, but it seems that he was baiting the teacher more than anything.

The school board is all over the teacher for not presenting both sides of the issue but he was clearly not trying to be one-sided about it at all.
#5 Mar 07 2006 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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This just in....be a teacher, get to say whatever the fUck you want to young children! Yay!

Where's the line? Who decides, and how?

The only reason democracy works is because you aren't free to do whatever you feel like. Weird huh?

Edited, Tue Mar 7 15:22:20 2006 by NephthysWanderer
#6 Mar 07 2006 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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My thoughts in a nutshell:

(A) The bits I heard on the radio (on Limbaugh, no less!) were indeed inflammatory sounding.
(B) I heard maybe a minute of a 20min tape of a 50min class.
(C) If the instructor's usual teaching style is like the minute I heard, I don't approve of his methods to promote critical thought.
(D) If (C) is true, he probably deserves to be suspended while his methods and compliance with school policy are reviewed.
(E) I have no way of knowing if (C) is true.
-and-
(F) I've never had an instructor who taught like what I heard. I've never known anyone else who mentioned an instructor who taught like what I heard. I fully accept that my experiences represent a very minor subset of the teaching community and invite your tales. Regardless, I fully expect that this tape will be the banner of a conservative cry of the "Liberal War on Our Students" now that the Christmas season is over.

Edited, Tue Mar 7 15:27:21 2006 by Jophiel
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#7 Mar 07 2006 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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This morning our lap dog gobenor Rep. Bill Owens got on the radio to make sure that everyone knew that the teacher was only wrong for not presenting opposing views which was against school policy. He couldn't even take a stand on a conservative talk show that broadcasts to his base. Thank bob the last election crushed Bill Owens' chances on being the next Rep. Presidential Canidate.

#8 Mar 07 2006 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I suspect your SO wouldn't go so far as to tell his class:

biased teacher wrote:
sounds a lot like the things that Adolf Hitler used to say. We're the only ones who are right, everyone else is backwards and our job is to conquer the world and make sure that they all live just like we want them to.


.........unless he's just some dumb ******.
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#9 Mar 07 2006 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Apparently the student only recorded 20 minutes of a 50 minute class. Hard to say from that whether the teacher gave or allowed an opposing perspective or not.

If he was trying to get the class to debate him he may have been saying more and more outrageous things to prod someone into responding. If you haven't had that particular challenge, I wouldn't judge his method too harshly.

Context is important, is all I'm saying.
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#10 Mar 07 2006 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
This just in....be a teacher, get to say whatever the fUck you want to young children! Yay!

Where's the line? Who decides, and how?

The only reason democracy works is because you aren't free to do whatever you feel like. Weird huh?


Jophiel wrote:
My thoughts in a nutshell:

(A) The bits I heard on the radio (on Limbaugh, no less!) were indeed inflammatory sounding.
(B) I heard maybe a minute of a 20min tape of a 50min class.
(C) If the instructor's usual teaching style is like the minute I heard, I don't approve of his methods to promote critical thought.

I had a teacher in high school that used to love to make people cry. He once told a girl who was very much into the Baptist faith that her church didn't exist. He regularly told us about his forays into the mountains with the KKK during his college years. He routinely insulted people's intelligence and their values, but I don't think anyone walked out the door not knowing what he was about. That said, his views didn't influence a soul. Both my brother and sister had him, and they can't remember a convert in either of their classes. This isn't to say that he couldn't have them, but I think it's a disservice to assume that kids of that age can't have a debate on a subject when their views divert from their teacher's.
#12 Mar 07 2006 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
I suspect your SO wouldn't go so far as to tell his class:

biased teacher wrote:
sounds a lot like the things that Adolf Hitler used to say. We're the only ones who are right, everyone else is backwards and our job is to conquer the world and make sure that they all live just like we want them to.



I did an entire project in college on war propaganda, and the subject isn't limited by political ideology. That is exactly what propaganda is: telling people that the enemy is inhuman, incapable of thought or reason, that the rest of the world doesn't think like us only because we have yet to show them the light, etc etc. It's very effective, and that's the reason why it's so widely used. I think it was a good example of how to objectively look at when you're being sold a certain product, no matter who is doing the selling. Like Samira, I think the context is key. People are swallowing the story same as they do propaganda. Think about the skew, and how it is being written.

And for those that missed it, this was in the original link:
Quote:
A student recorded at least part of the lecture in Bennish's world geography class and took it to a Denver radio station, which played parts of it on a talk show.

Bennish told "Today" the excerpts broadcast weren't representative of the full lecture.

"This is 20 minutes out of a 50-minute class. The rest of the class provides the balance," he said.


On the recording, Bennish told the students that some of Bush's speech "sounds a lot like the things that Adolf Hitler used to say. We're the only ones who are right, everyone else is backwards and our job is to conquer the world and make sure that they all live just like we want them to."

Later in the recording, Bennish said he was not claiming Bush and Hitler were the same, "but there are some eerie similarities to the tones that they use."
#13 Mar 07 2006 at 3:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I had a teacher in high school that used to love to make people cry. He once told a girl who was very much into the Baptist faith that her church didn't exist. He regularly told us about his forays into the mountains with the KKK during his college years. He routinely insulted people's intelligence and their values, but I don't think anyone walked out the door not knowing what he was about. That said, his views didn't influence a soul. Both my brother and sister had him, and they can't remember a convert in either of their classes. This isn't to say that he couldn't have them, but I think it's a disservice to assume that kids of that age can't have a debate on a subject when their views divert from their teacher's.


Ok...he was wrong too.
Kids can have a debate, but not on whatever the hell the teacher feels like.
If the only way to teach kids to think is to make them cry or compare the sitting President to Hitler, chances are you should probably go back to the planning room.
#14 Mar 07 2006 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
The Glorious Atomicflea wrote:
I think it's a disservice to assume that kids of that age can't have a debate on a subject when their views divert from their teacher's.



One more thing...I may be remembering this incorrectly but I believe that the lesson was not originally anything to do with Bush, his speech, or comparing/contrasting it with Hitler. The students actually asked the teacher what he thought about the speech, and that eventually led to the recorded parts that have been playing on the radio.

So, it isn't like he just walked in and said "OK class, today we are going to learn how our president is the same as Hitler." The students actually wanted to discuss the State of the Union address.
#15 Mar 07 2006 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:


Ok...he was wrong too.

I didn't particularly mind him. Good prep for other right-wing wackos.

Quote:
Kids can have a debate, but not on whatever the hell the teacher feels like.

I disagree. I think that teaching is all about letting children use their minds to draw their own conclusions, whether they oppose yours or not. The only guiding principle should be that you stay within the subject area you are qualified to teach in, and that you be prepared to guide the discussion objectively and end it gracefully should it get out of hand.

Quote:
If the only way to teach kids to think is to make them cry or compare the sitting President to Hitler, chances are you should probably go back to the planning room.

If it were the only way, I'd agree. He mentioned several times he was not equating the two.
#16 Mar 07 2006 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:

Ok...he was wrong too.
Kids can have a debate, but not on whatever the hell the teacher feels like.


You are like the Hitler of teaching! "My way of teaching is right and everyone else is wrong. I won't rest until I've conquered the world and converted them to my teaching style. Someone please, think of the children!"

#17 Mar 07 2006 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have my doubts that getting girls to cry, mocking religion and teaching racism is an effective method of promoting critical thought as well. There’s a difference between getting your students to think on an issue and just getting them to ride out your tirades.
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#18 Mar 07 2006 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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Let's not forget the Student (Allen) released this tape the the Mike Rosen show on 850-KOA here in town. The school district had to get a copy from the radio station for their investigation.

I was ok with the suspension up until I heard that the Cherry Creek School District instigated the investigation after they got the backlash from the radio show. The fact that the student didn't present the material to the principal, super, or department head seems to imply muck-raking to me.





Edited, Tue Mar 7 16:01:18 2006 by baelnic
#19 Mar 07 2006 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Umm...given the fact that no one knows the complete story, I have only one thing to say.



SUCK IT DEMS! PUBBIES ROXXOR UR SOXXORZ!1!
#21 Mar 07 2006 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I have my doubts that getting girls to cry, mocking religion and teaching racism is an effective method of promoting critical thought as well. There’s a difference between getting your students to think on an issue and just getting them to ride out your tirades.

That's just it. Not every student is the shy, retiring type that won't speak their mind. Some need a good fire lit under them to get them going. A great deal of critical thought is brought on by times of stress and trial. It's not like you're hitting them or taking their lunch money. You're just making them stand behind their arguments. These are high-school age kids here, not preschoolers.

Edited, Tue Mar 7 16:01:32 2006 by Atomicflea
#22 Mar 07 2006 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
Umm...given the fact that no one knows the complete story, I have only one thing to say.



SUCK IT DEMS! PUBBIES ROXXOR UR SOXXORZ!1!

Oh great. Now I have to go cry.
#23 Mar 07 2006 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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The Glorious Atomicflea wrote:
I did an entire project in college on war propaganda, and the subject isn't limited by political ideology. That is exactly what propaganda is: telling people that the enemy is inhuman, incapable of thought or reason, that the rest of the world doesn't think like us only because we have yet to show them the light, etc etc. It's very effective, and that's the reason why it's so widely used. I think it was a good example of how to objectively look at when you're being sold a certain product, no matter who is doing the selling. Like Samira, I think the context is key. People are swallowing the story same as they do propaganda. Think about the skew, and how it is being written.

And for those that missed it, this was in the original link:
Quote:
A student recorded at least part of the lecture in Bennish's world geography class and took it to a Denver radio station, which played parts of it on a talk show.

Bennish told "Today" the excerpts broadcast weren't representative of the full lecture.

"This is 20 minutes out of a 50-minute class. The rest of the class provides the balance," he said.


On the recording, Bennish told the students that some of Bush's speech "sounds a lot like the things that Adolf Hitler used to say. We're the only ones who are right, everyone else is backwards and our job is to conquer the world and make sure that they all live just like we want them to."
But Bush never said these things. This is the teacher's interpretation of what Bush says and whether I, or you agree with his interpretation it is still just that.

Quote:
Later in the recording, Bennish said he was not claiming Bush and Hitler were the same, "but there are some eerie similarities to the tones that they use."
There are similarities between Hitler and many world leaders. Did this teacher discuss any others? Sure kids should be taught about propaganda, how to recognize it and how utterly effective it can be but the bit I read of this teachers lectures does make him sound biased as though he has a Bush vendetta(probably does). I would hope a school would step in when a teacher is pushing his values on the students.

Course I didn't hear the whole interview just the bits spewed about here and who knows maybe the media attention and suspension from teaching is what he was ultimately after?

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#24 Mar 07 2006 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
That's just it. Not every student is the shy, retiring type that won't speak their mind. Some need a good fire lit under them to get them going. A great deal of critical thought is brought on by times of stress and trial. It's not like you're hitting them or taking their lunch money. You're just making them stand behind their arguments. These are high-school age kids here, not preschoolers.


Most are opinionated and arrogant and are going to shun direct assaults and dismiss them as crazed soapbox tirades.

Now what?
#25 Mar 07 2006 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
There are similarities between Hitler and many world leaders. Did this teacher discuss any others? Sure kids should be taught about propaganda, how to recognize it and how utterly effective it can be but the bit I read of this teachers lectures does make him sound biased as though he has a Bush vendetta(probably does). I would hope a school would step in when a teacher is pushing his values on the students.

He was discussing the US state of the union address, so no, unless someone other than George Bush gave it.

Quote:
Course I didn't hear the whole interview just the bits spewed about here and who knows maybe the media attention and suspension from teaching is what he was ultimately after?

That makes no sense. Why would you seek that kind of publicity when all it would do is make you notorious, endanger your livelihood, and make you into a posterboy for the same propaganda you are denouncing? What does seem probable is that if the discussion topic was brought up by students, the students that recorded him knew ahead of time what his slant would be.
#26 Mar 07 2006 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
Quote:
That's just it. Not every student is the shy, retiring type that won't speak their mind. Some need a good fire lit under them to get them going. A great deal of critical thought is brought on by times of stress and trial. It's not like you're hitting them or taking their lunch money. You're just making them stand behind their arguments. These are high-school age kids here, not preschoolers.


Most are opinionated and arrogant and are going to shun direct assaults and dismiss them as crazed soapbox tirades.

Now what?

Now you state why you don't think it's propaganda, you find a liberal who used it in the past to great effect and use him to counter, etc etc. Any number of ways to have an intelligent discussion that don't involve getting the person that opposes your point of view dismissed so you don't have to hear it anymore. That's just plain weak.
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