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#127 Oct 20 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Default
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Timelordwho wrote:
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Sure. And he assumed that condition would not change and would in fact get worse over time. He was wrong. Karl Marx did not understand that modern industrialism breaks the thousands of years old zero-sum nature of economics. And it's not unreasonable for him to have missed it. That rule had been the case for the entire history of human economic endeavors. For one person to get rich, someone else had to be poor.


Woah, buddy, stop right there.

Economics have never been a zero sum game...


That's almost a matter of semantics. I'd say that it was much more often a zero sum game prior to the industrial revolution than afterwards.

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capitalism is no different from any other system in this regard.


Can you spot what you did wrong there? I didn't say that "capitalism" changed economics to a non-zero-sum game. I said that "modern industrialism" (combined with capitalism to be sure) did.

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Increased utility has always been created by economic activity, or there would, by it's nature, be no economic activity.


Not "no economic activity", just less economic growth. Let me bottom line this, true economic growth only comes about in one of two ways:

1. You increase the total resources you have available to use.

2. You increase the efficiency with which you use those resources.


For most of the history of man, economic growth has mostly be affected by the first method. A country wages war on another country and takes stuff from them. Or it colonizes and utilizes new lands (which usually also requires making war on those who were formerly living there). Increases in utilization efficiency did occur, but were minor and rare. Every once in awhile, someone came up with a better way to make bread, or to construct ships, or forge metal. But only every once in awhile.

Also, for most of human history economies of scale have limited resource use. It requires progressively greater amounts of total resources the more of something you make. It's pretty easy to get someone to make a wicker basket for you. But try to buy a hundred million of them in a pre-industrial civilization and you'll find it impossibly expensive.

As a result of these factors, economics in the immediate term at least really could be thought of as zero sum. A given section of land will produce so much grain, or lumber, or wool, or whatever in a year of working that land. The total is all you have. If the land owner gets more it pretty much always means that the poor folks working on his land gets less. This is where the concept of the rich taking from the poor comes from btw. It's based on the sort of European land-use economic model which we had prior to the industrial revolution.

Industrialization changes all of that. Economies of scale reverse. It might cost a lot to build a wicker basket making machine, which means that the first basket is very expensive. But the more baskets you make the less expensive they are in terms of cost per basket. This allows for the production of massive quantities of things while decreasing the total resources per thing being consumed. The total production capable is no longer limited to land and labor (or not as much limited). In economic terms, it pretty much turns everything on its head.

Marx didn't realize this. And to be fair, it would have been easy to miss in the mid 19th century. He saw wealthy industrialists becoming increasingly more wealthy, without the workers earning more wages and since all his knowledge of economics meant that the workers wages must themselves be deflated because the wealth of the rich had to come from somewhere, he assumed a steadily degrading system in which the poor got poorer while the rich got richer. He simply didn't take into account the effect that the massive increase in productive output would have on the cost and availability of products *and* the introduction of new and never even dreamed of things.


He had an excuse for not seeing it. He didn't have the luxury of a century and a half of industrialization transforming our lives. But those living today shouldn't still cling to his mistake. He was wrong about the effects of industrialization and capitalism. He was wrong to assume that we required the creation of some new economic system in order to protect us from what was going on. We didn't. Capitalism worked with this new industrialism just fine and created a much better world than any system based on Marx's ideas did.
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#128 Oct 20 2011 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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wow that is a lot of words, you must not know much about this topic.
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#129 Oct 20 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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ITT: Gbaji insists trickle down works as intended.
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#130 Oct 20 2011 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
ITT: Gbaji insists trickle down works as intended.


There's a pretty direct correlation in western nations over the last century between the increase in absolute and relative wealth among the rich and a rise in overall standard of living among the poor (and everyone else actually). I don't know what you think trickle down is or how it's supposed to work, but your statement about it is somewhat meaningless given the facts of history.

Edited, Oct 20th 2011 6:42pm by gbaji
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#131 Oct 20 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
ITT: Gbaji insists trickle down works as intended.


There's a pretty direct correlation in western nations over the last century between the increase in absolute and relative wealth among the rich and a rise in overall standard of living among the poor (and everyone else actually). I don't know what you think trickle down is or how it's supposed to work, but your statement about it is somewhat meaningless given the facts of history.

Edited, Oct 20th 2011 6:42pm by gbaji


That's true. The rich do keep getting richer. And while conditions of the poor, in general, get better (with the exception to the lowest bracket, whose conditions are largely unchanged), relative to the rich they are doing worse on average.

I can only ASSUME that's what you were getting at.
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#132 Oct 21 2011 at 4:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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somehow gbaji has equated increases in just about every other part of society to proof that trickle down economics works. The poor do better now because the social programs, and support structures society has built allows them to do so. It has nothing to do with economics. If it had to do with economics and trickle down actually worked the way it was laid out to work, you wouldn't have poverty in the US, or really anywhere for that matter.

1% controls 99% of the money, the amount of money controlled by the rich elite has increased substantially since "Reagenocomics" (trickle down economics if you will) took hold.
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#133 Oct 21 2011 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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The poor have fridges, so they're obviously doing well.
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#134 Oct 21 2011 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
And CHAC! Don't forget that luxury. Anyone who can afford to rent an apartment with air conditioning is doing just fine.

*State regulations in most of the south prevent anyone from renting an apartment unit without some form of AC.
#135 Oct 21 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gbaji, you appear not to know basic definitions, so you are even more misinformed and logically inconsistent then usual.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 4:39pm by Timelordwho
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#136 Oct 21 2011 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Gbaji, you appear not to know basic definitions, so you are even more misinformed and logically inconsistent then usual.


I disagree with the assumptions most people make about those definitions though. Which is why I prefer to talk about exactly what I'm talking about instead of just applying a label which may carry some assumptions and connotations which aren't applicable in all cases. People say that "trickle down doesn't work", but it's interesting just how inconsistent they are with what they think "trickle down" is. That or they're using a definition of trickle down, which is either not an agreed upon definition, or is one that is designed to be "true", but acts as a strawman in the context used (It's not what the other side argues will happen).

Conservatives predict that if we allow those who produce goods to become wealthy as a result, that this will cause improvements in the human condition for everyone, not just those producers (ie: the rich get rich, but the poor's standard of living increases as well). Countering that by saying "but trickle down doesn't work", when by "trickle down" you mean something completely different than what I was talking about, is at best meaningless and at worst deliberately deceptive.
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#137 Oct 21 2011 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
That's true. The rich do keep getting richer. And while conditions of the poor, in general, get better (with the exception to the lowest bracket, whose conditions are largely unchanged), relative to the rich they are doing worse on average.

I can only ASSUME that's what you were getting at.


Sure. But what I don't agree with is the decision to care more about the relative condition of a poor person to a rich person *today* instead of the relative condition of a poor person today to a poor person in the past. Why does it matter if the rich guy has 10,000 times as much money than you instead of just 1,000 times? How does that hurt you?

IMO, it doesn't. All that should matter is if conditions at any given level have improved or not. And it's hard to argue that they haven't improved over the last century or so. Massively improved, in fact. If Marx could have seen into the future what the fruits of his works would be when adopted and what things would be like in societies which didn't utilize his theories (or avoided them as much as possible at least), he would have chosen to never write what he did.

He was just that absolutely 100% wrong. The scary thing is how many people today still cling to the promises and assumptions he made based on his completely wrong assessment of the world. Even with the proof of just how much conditions have improved as a result of using capitalism as the prime economic mover in the industrial age, and consistent examples of just how badly people do when communism (and to some degree socialism) are used instead, some people still continue to parrot his ideas. He was wrong then. He is still wrong today. Why does anyone think otherwise?
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#138 Oct 21 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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Definitions don't include assumptions. They are all fully arbitrary specifications of specific ideas, agreed upon at large or set by the person who created the term.

A term that fails to describe anything of value (as in one that fails to describe anything that actually happens) can still have a definition. That definition cannot be false, unless it fails to properly identify the agreed-upon necessary and sufficient conditions the term demands.

Your definitions are false, because you use definitions that no one on the planet agrees with. Using these definitions to make your arguments is an incredibly absurd way to debate. Because you've intentionally chosen to put yourself in a position where you are working outside the framework that every other human being uses.
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#139 Oct 21 2011 at 6:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Which is why I prefer to talk about exactly what I'm talking about instead of just applying a label which may carry some assumptions and connotations which aren't applicable in all cases.


Applying the wrong label is not the same as not applying a label.
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#140 Oct 21 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Definitions don't include assumptions. They are all fully arbitrary specifications of specific ideas, agreed upon at large or set by the person who created the term.


People do have assumptions about how the definitions are to be applied though. If I speak very clearly about something, and someone responds by using a word or phrase with a definition which is either incorrect *or* does not address what I'm speaking of, they can (and do) still argue that their counter is successful. Just as with the "but trickle down doesn't work!" counter.

Quote:
A term that fails to describe anything of value (as in one that fails to describe anything that actually happens) can still have a definition. That definition cannot be false, unless it fails to properly identify the agreed-upon necessary and sufficient conditions the term demands.


Ok. But who gets to decide what the "agreed upon" definition is? How does that prevent one group from either inventing a definition for a term and applying it to another groups position/idea/argument and then using the word or phrase instead of the argument? Who decides what "trickle down" really means? And if it doesn't mean what conservatives mean (when it's their own economic argument), then isn't it wrong for anyone else to use it?

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Your definitions are false, because you use definitions that no one on the planet agrees with.


That's a circular argument though. I'm not using a definition of a word or phrase. I'm clearly defining all on my own what I'm talking bout. Someone else, when responding to me, equates what I said to a word or phrase which doesn't actually match what I said, and then by refuting their own word choice, attempt to refute what I said without ever actually addressing it directly.


I happen to *also* believe that trickle down economic theory isn't limited solely to the things which liberals often use to measure its success or failure, but if you are bothered by the discrepancy, then lets stop using the term. That's kinda what I'm trying to get across here. It's somewhat fruitless for us to argue about what the correct definition of a term is, with each side insisting that their interpretation is correct, if those interpretations really don't match the actual issue being discussed.

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Using these definitions to make your arguments is an incredibly absurd way to debate.


I didn't do that though. The poster who responded to me by saying "trickle down doesn't work" did. I didn't use that phrase. I clearly described exactly what I was talking about and avoided using anything which might include some definition which didn't match. Yet, someone else still decided to equate my statement with a phrase, then apply a definition which didn't match what I actually said, and then argued against his own phrase instead of what I said. Surely you can see how this is an even more absurd way of arguing?

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Because you've intentionally chosen to put yourself in a position where you are working outside the framework that every other human being uses.


A framework in which I clearly speak of broad economic outcomes over time resulting from wealth being gained by the rich within an economy, and someone counters that with a phrase which they interpret to mean that if a business owner makes more money, he'll pay his employees more, then insists that since this thing I didn't talk about at all doesn't happen, that my position must be wrong?


That's the "framework" I'm supposed to accept? Sorry. I'm not going to. If you're going to insist that we use accepted definition for terms, then you have to also insist that we use those terms only in cases where the accepted definition actually applies. But some people seem to want it both ways. They want to use the term in any case that vaguely follows a broad political ideology, but then only allow it to be applied narrowly when anyone refutes their claims. To me, that's pure BS.


Let me also point out that I'm not actually using the term incorrectly anyway. But let's not let that stop anyone.
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#141 Oct 21 2011 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
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Which is why I prefer to talk about exactly what I'm talking about instead of just applying a label which may carry some assumptions and connotations which aren't applicable in all cases.


Applying the wrong label is not the same as not applying a label.


That's true. Now show me where I applied the wrong label to something.
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#142 Oct 21 2011 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
ITT: Gbaji insists trickle down works as intended.


There's a pretty direct correlation in western nations over the last century between the increase in absolute and relative wealth among the rich and a rise in overall standard of living among the poor (and everyone else actually). I don't know what you think trickle down is or how it's supposed to work, but your statement about it is somewhat meaningless given the facts of history.

Edited, Oct 20th 2011 6:42pm by gbaji


^ is not trickle down economics at work. Its largely supported by the middle class that has been raped into oblivion, because trickle down economics has not worked, and in the capacity show in the USA can not work.

kinda shocked a a pubie such as yourself doesn't even understand the fundamentals of the "greatest republican administration's" core principles of trickle down economics, even more shocking is a staunch GOP supporter actually pointing to socialist style government policies as the evidence Trickle down economics has worked.


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#143 Oct 21 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
ITT: Gbaji insists trickle down works as intended.


There's a pretty direct correlation in western nations over the last century between the increase in absolute and relative wealth among the rich and a rise in overall standard of living among the poor (and everyone else actually). I don't know what you think trickle down is or how it's supposed to work, but your statement about it is somewhat meaningless given the facts of history.

Edited, Oct 20th 2011 6:42pm by gbaji


^ is not trickle down economics at work. Its largely supported by the middle class that has been raped into oblivion, because trickle down economics has not worked, and in the capacity show in the USA can not work.

kinda shocked a a pubie such as yourself doesn't even understand the fundamentals of the "greatest republican administration's" core principles of trickle down economics, even more shocking is a staunch GOP supporter actually pointing to socialist style government policies as the evidence Trickle down economics has worked.


What I just said *is* the relevant conservative economic theory. If that doesn't match your definition of "trickle down economics", then one of two things is going on:

1. Your definition of trickle down economics is wrong.

2. The label trickle down economics does not actually apply to conservative economic theories (and is thus a straw man).


It's pretty hysterical for you to insist that I don't understand conservative economic principles because they don't match what you've been taught is "trickle down economics". Very very hysterical, in fact.
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#144 Oct 21 2011 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
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Which is why I prefer to talk about exactly what I'm talking about instead of just applying a label which may carry some assumptions and connotations which aren't applicable in all cases.


Applying the wrong label is not the same as not applying a label.


That's true. Now show me where I applied the wrong label to something.


If you are applying the label "liberal" to China, in any way, you aren't even REMOTELY using it correctly.
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#145 Oct 21 2011 at 9:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
There's a pretty direct correlation in western nations over the last century between the increase in absolute and relative wealth among the rich and a rise in overall standard of living among the poor (and everyone else actually). I don't know what you think trickle down is or how it's supposed to work, but your statement about it is somewhat meaningless given the facts of history.

There's also a pretty direct correlation between population and standard of living. And time and standard of living. And the prevalence of Marxism and the standard of living, to a point. Etc, etc, correlation != causation.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 10:28pm by Majivo
#146 Oct 21 2011 at 9:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok, If it was over your head, you were talking about a zero sum system.

It's entirely obvious, even without a definition, A + B + C = 0.

You said that industrialism broke this equation to no longer be a zero sum system (A + B + C = X ; A + B + C + X = 0)

This is false because for this to be true, no net economic growth (and therefore, no wealth creation) could have ever occurred in the course of human history prior to the industrial revolution.
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#147 Oct 21 2011 at 9:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Furthermore, In the cases where economics can be considered a zero sum system, you are comparing percentile wealth holdings, not net wealth accumulation.

You can compare the %W(t₁) to %W(t₂), ΣW(t₁) to ΣW(t₂), or W(t₁) to W(t₂). It's never valid to compare a percentile to a net total, or to a value.
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#148 Oct 22 2011 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
no wealth creation could have ever occurred in the course of human history


Has any wealth truly been created? We have certainly gotten better at transforming the earth into objects, and created more garbage, but can anything that ultimately ends up in a dump or an incinerator (and thus into the atmosphere) be called wealth.

Like we "have" more gold than we ever had before, but the sum total amount of gold in and on our planet has not increased. We have dug up more coal and burned it - but the total amount of "coal wealth" (created by more than 300 million years of sunshine and geologic pressure) hasn't measurably increased in the time frames we are talking about.

I am inclined to believe wealth creation is a myth, created by a flawed economics that considers the earth's resources unlimited
#149 Oct 22 2011 at 9:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, you sure are a special snowflake then.

Do you place any value on things that society has created and refined over time?

If your answer is yes, you believe wealth creation exists as a concept. If your answer is no, then go enjoy the simple pleasures of sticks and mud, and dance the dance of futility.
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#150 Oct 22 2011 at 9:52 PM Rating: Excellent
If you don't believe in wealth, you really shouldn't own a computer. At least not until all of Gaia's children in Africa and what-not are well fed.
#151 Oct 23 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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In other news, the Occupy movement has reached the thriving financial mecca of Poughkeepsie, New York.
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