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#202 Dec 02 2011 at 1:31 AM Rating: Good
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Wow, you people are horrible! How dare you mock and ridicule this poor little kid who clearly has a learning disability of some sort? At least he is putting forth some effort. Just because he can't organize the majority of his words into what most people would consider a comprehensible format is no reason to make fun. This misunderstood child that is so desperately seeking your approval the he quotes your positive comments and repeatedly posts poor emulations of you in misguided attempts to gain a glimmer of attention. You should all be ashamed of yourselves!

Preach on, "Alma"! I think you're totally rad above, too!

P.S. - Omega, I'm not sure what you mean by "generational wealth". I'm 3rd generation American of po' *** European descent. I'm going to assume you're White, so you must have tons of cash. If you or your crazy-rich parents could send me some I'd very much like to get in on this rich White guy legacy thing.

P.P.S. - Kelvy, if you could teach me some self-rape techniques that don't leave any marks I may have some interesting business opportunities to line up.

3.P.S. - I just recently learned that my sig is no longer ironic. What a sad day.
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#203 Dec 02 2011 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
Gbaji wrote:

Except that's not true. And until we as a society stop focusing on that false assumption, we can't possibly hope to solve the problem.


Listen, I'm not saying that the only reason that blacks are still predominately poor is because they descended from slaves, but it is & has been a contributing factor. Furthermore, most white's don't even see it as a problem to solve so using "generational wealth" as something that's distracting us from the "real" problem is completely bogus.

The "real" problem, that we can do something about, is our economic policies that further exasperate the wealth inequality between blacks & whites.

Linky


The Fedral Reserve wrote:
...the net worth of the typical African American family in 2007 was just 10 percent of the net worth of the typical white family — down from 12 percent in 2004. Put another way: For every $1 held by whites five years ago, blacks had 12 cents. Three years later, they had a dime.


It should be noted that these numbers are from before the recent economic collapse. Why did this happen?

Article wrote:
That the wealth disparity is so wide is largely attributable to prejudiced policies both public and private. Advocates and academics point out that some of the largest federal benefit programs of the last century propped up whites but largely excluded minorities. The Federal Housing Administration, for example, provided $120 billion in low-interest mortgage loans beginning in the 1930s, yet less than 2 percent went to minorities before 1962, Liu found. And the Depression-era Home Owners’ Loan Corporation, created to modify mortgages to prevent foreclosures, benefited no minorities whatsoever, she said.

More recently, Harvard University discovered that, among blacks and whites of similar incomes, lenders targeted blacks more often for sub-prime loans, even when those minority borrowers were eligible for less risky arrangements.


So, we need to change some economic policies to start. Ending the Bush tax cuts would certainly help, but rest assured that won't happen so the income gap will keep widening between the races.

Throw some money into low-income education though it might benefit a black persons income over their lifetime, give them a slight chance to increase the wealth they pass onto their descendants, & will help ease the white man's burden.

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#204 Dec 02 2011 at 5:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jacobsdeception wrote:
Wow, you people are horrible! How dare you mock and ridicule this poor little kid who clearly has a learning disability of some sort? At least he is putting forth some effort. Just because he can't organize the majority of his words into what most people would consider a comprehensible format is no reason to make fun. This misunderstood child that is so desperately seeking your approval the he quotes your positive comments and repeatedly posts poor emulations of you in misguided attempts to gain a glimmer of attention. You should all be ashamed of yourselves!

Preach on, "Alma"! I think you're totally rad above, too!

P.S. - Omega, I'm not sure what you mean by "generational wealth". I'm 3rd generation American of po' *** European descent. I'm going to assume you're White, so you must have tons of cash. If you or your crazy-rich parents could send me some I'd very much like to get in on this rich White guy legacy thing.

P.P.S. - Kelvy, if you could teach me some self-rape techniques that don't leave any marks I may have some interesting business opportunities to line up.

3.P.S. - I just recently learned that my sig is no longer ironic. What a sad day.

Look what the cat dragged in.
#205 Dec 02 2011 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
So you people think that descendants of African-American slaves would have been better off in Africa?
Smiley: lol ridiculous

I'd take MLKJr Blvd over any street in Liberia.

Edited, Dec 1st 2011 1:36am by Kelvyquayo


Is that before or after Europe raped Africa?

In any case, I would rather be "poor" in Africa over being your slave any day of the week. Being "poor" is a part of life for most, being physically abused and dehumanized isn't. Jus' sayin'.



You do know that all races have been enslaving all other races since the dawn of time, right?

You know what happened when freed slaves were allowed to go back to Africa? They ENSLAVED the natives. Not to mention that African warlords had a huge part in the "Triangle" of slave trade as well.
And don't start about "they learned it from Europeans". A race of people doesn't need another race to teach them how to rape themselves.

And I am in NO way saying that to be a slave is somehow preferable to being poor. Wealth in a society doesn't necessarily equate to happiness in a society anyway. It's pretty relative. I'm saying that reparations are nonsensical for a great number of reasons.
To single out American descendants of slaves (not that that is even possible anyway) for compensation ignores all of the other races and cultures that have been ****** over since the dawn of time.
It's time to start looking ahead for solutions instead if digging up skeletons and expecting it to accomplish something.

Not that this debate isn't a total farce anyway as we all know it's never ever going to happen.

As far as affirmative action; that's a lot more than just blacks obviously; to couple it with an argument about reparations is being totally disingenuous to the real issue of prejudice.




I wasn't denying anything that you have said. My comment was in reference to your implication that Africans were better off being enslaved, because NOW THEY'RE AMURICAN! As opposed to being African.

As you pointed out, everyone had a "bad history", but you know how many of them came to the U.S? Voluntarily, not enslaved.

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#206 Dec 02 2011 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
So you people think that descendants of African-American slaves would have been better off in Africa?
Smiley: lol ridiculous

I've skimmed most of this thread and never saw it turn towards Africa. The topic is about blacks, in the US, being disadvantaged.

Let me rephrase Alma /= you people.





Edited, Dec 2nd 2011 2:52pm by Elinda
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#207 Dec 02 2011 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
It should be noted that these numbers are from before the recent economic collapse. Why did this happen?

Bush hates black people.
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#208 Dec 02 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Jacob wrote:
Wow, you people are horrible! How dare you mock and ridicule this poor little kid who clearly has a learning disability of some sort? At least he is putting forth some effort. Just because he can't organize the majority of his words into what most people would consider a comprehensible format is no reason to make fun. This misunderstood child that is so desperately seeking your approval the he quotes your positive comments and repeatedly posts poor emulations of you in misguided attempts to gain a glimmer of attention. You should all be ashamed of yourselves!


I know that I shouldn't even waste my time responding to such an amateurish derision, but we can certainly play this game. Don't let your ignorance and stupidity lead you to think that you're worth anything in life. You're obviously a bandwagon poster who's completely clueless on what's going on and felt the need to recycle comments to "fit in". I mean, unless you truly believe the typo "rad" is any indication of logic.

If you're unable to understand my words, then maybe that's a clue that my intellect is peerless to you. So, if it makes you feel special, then go ahead and hold on to that tenacious thought of me being somewhat inferior to you in any way shape or form.

Vageta wrote:
So, we need to change some economic policies to start. Ending the Bush tax cuts would certainly help, but rest assured that won't happen so the income gap will keep widening between the races.

Throw some money into low-income education though it might benefit a black persons income over their lifetime, give them a slight chance to increase the wealth they pass onto their descendants, & will help ease the white man's burden.


No feasible and logical amount of money will ever close the gap of "generational wealth". It's truly sad that you think money is the answer.

If the people don't have the knowledge, motivation and goals to be something in life, they will fail, no matter how much money they have.

"Throwing some money into low-income education" as opposed to refocusing the education is the exact reason how the education system fails.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#209 Dec 02 2011 at 8:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
If the people don't have the knowledge, motivation and goals to be something in life, they will fail, no matter how much money they have.

"Throwing some money into low-income education" as opposed to refocusing the education is the exact reason how the education system fails.
How would you 'refocus' the education?
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#210 Dec 02 2011 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Don't let your ignorance and stupidity lead you to think that you're worth anything in life.
That's as adorable as a litter of fluffy kittens in one of those twenty minute ASPCA Sarah Mclachlan commercials.
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#211 Dec 02 2011 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
lolgaxe wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Don't let your ignorance and stupidity lead you to think that you're worth anything in life.
That's as adorable as a litter of fluffy kittens in one of those twenty minute ASPCA Sarah Mclachlan commercials.
It's also as sad as all the beaten and starved dogs in same said commercial.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#212 Dec 02 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Jacob wrote:
Wow, you people are horrible! How dare you mock and ridicule this poor little kid who clearly has a learning disability of some sort? At least he is putting forth some effort. Just because he can't organize the majority of his words into what most people would consider a comprehensible format is no reason to make fun. This misunderstood child that is so desperately seeking your approval the he quotes your positive comments and repeatedly posts poor emulations of you in misguided attempts to gain a glimmer of attention. You should all be ashamed of yourselves!


I know that I shouldn't even waste my time responding to such an amateurish derision, but we can certainly play this game. Don't let your ignorance and stupidity lead you to think that you're worth anything in life. You're obviously a bandwagon poster who's completely clueless on what's going on and felt the need to recycle comments to "fit in". I mean, unless you truly believe the typo "rad" is any indication of logic.

JD is an old poster that's come home to roost. We like him. Unlike you.
#213 Dec 02 2011 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
P.P.S. - Kelvy, if you could teach me some self-rape techniques that don't leave any marks I may have some interesting business opportunities to line up.


I'll email you the pics tonight! Keep them secret, keep them safe..
good to see you, man, ya sick bastage
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#214 Dec 02 2011 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
@ JD
NSFW: Language

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#215 Dec 02 2011 at 11:20 AM Rating: Default
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Bringing me back to owning land and people...classic thanks for that.

ps id like you to send me a new keyboard, something cheezy is fine this one has coffee in it now. I think we need an Acronym for swallow whats in your mouth SWIYM?
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#216 Dec 02 2011 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
I think we need an Acronym for swallow whats in your mouth SWIYM?

You want the DADT thread. Or maybe the virgin one.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2011 11:46am by Jophiel
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#217 Dec 02 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
I think we need an Acronym for swallow whats in your mouth SWIYM?

You want the DADT thread. Or maybe the virgin one.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2011 11:46am by Jophiel


HAHAHA **** my keyboard will be a sticky mess when I get home from work now. (because of the sugar in my coffee you sicko's).
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#218 Dec 02 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
sugar in my coffee


Well there's your problem right there. Smiley: wink
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#219 Dec 02 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
sugar in my coffee


Well there's your problem right there. Smiley: wink


old habits die hard, I can drink black coffee, but ive just been making coffee with a spoon of sugar for over 10 years and well it is just automatic now.
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#220 Dec 02 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I know that I shouldn't even waste my time responding to such an amateurish derision, but we can certainly play this game. Don't let your ignorance and stupidity lead you to think that you're worth anything in life. You're obviously a bandwagon poster who's completely clueless on what's going on and felt the need to recycle comments to "fit in". I mean, unless you truly believe the typo "rad" is any indication of logic.

If you're unable to understand my words, then maybe that's a clue that my intellect is peerless to you. So, if it makes you feel special, then go ahead and hold on to that tenacious thought of me being somewhat inferior to you in any way shape or form.

Don't worry; the impulse control will come with age. I understand your words just fine. I have a six year old with about the same grasp of the English language so I'm fairly accustomed to deciphering what you kids **** on a page.

Quote:
No feasible and logical amount of money will ever close the gap of "generational wealth". It's truly sad that you think money is the answer.

If the people don't have the knowledge, motivation and goals to be something in life, they will fail, no matter how much money they have.
Right, because the practical application of which would be used for a purpose other than the accumulation of wealth. I'd also disagree with your inference that "the people" (and by "the people", I assume you mean "those people" {and by "those people" I mean "black" people}) are ignorant, lazy under-achievers.

Nadenu! wrote:
We like him.
How you doin'?Smiley: sly

OV wrote:
@JD
lazy prick.(but cool link. I saw that show on Netflix, very funny. Neat new feature, when did they connect the youtubes to the zam tube?)
While he makes a mildly amusing observation, in my experience it is grossly exaggerated. I'm white and I'm not rich. I can't even afford a Lexus! My BMW is already four years old and I've still got $24k to pay off! I'm on the verge of being upside-down on a mortgage since the ****** housing market is pushing the property value below $500k. Do you have any idea what that does to your credit?! I'm already down to 845 for ****'s sake!!
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#221 Dec 03 2011 at 12:16 AM Rating: Excellent
@ JD

Do you think that there's a chance that you've ever benefited just from being white, living in a world mostly run by white people? Did your parents? Did theirs?

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#222 Dec 03 2011 at 3:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
Quote:
If the people don't have the knowledge, motivation and goals to be something in life, they will fail, no matter how much money they have.

"Throwing some money into low-income education" as opposed to refocusing the education is the exact reason how the education system fails.
How would you 'refocus' the education?


Well, that depends on what the problem is. When I was studying "Curriculum and Instruction" from lolphoenix, I concentrated on math education. Research supports that math is a favorite subject for elementary students, but quickly falls to last in the pre-algebra time period.

In my high school, there were students who planned to go to college, but took the tech path to avoid taking Algebra II, not realizing that College Algebra is nothing more than Algebra I and II. In college, I tutored fresh out of high school freshman on middle school math.

I stopped, thought and researched the math concepts that are taught in the k-12 curricula. For the most part, it can be very redundant up until 9th or 10th grade if the student decides to "take it slow".


I spent 3 years in Korea and spoke with various Asians of different backgrounds and concluded that they equally hate math just as much as we do. The difference is that they have to take entrance exams to go to HIGH School, so they study and they are forced to take Physics and Calculus. Because of this, when they come to the U.S., they blow us out of the water. It has nothing to do with them being inherently smarter.

What does this all mean? It means, that a fault that the U.S. has in the math curriculum is redundancy and options to "take it slow". From there, you address those issues by forcing students to take certain classes by certain levels and providing summer school and after school programs for students that might need extra attention. Is it that easy? No. Is that the 100% solution? It's the concept of what has to be done to improve education.

Although, money is a huge factor, just tossing money at that problem without properly defining what the problem is and why it is what it is will never solve it.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#223 Dec 03 2011 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
Alma wrote:

Although, money is a huge factor, just tossing money at that problem without properly defining what the problem is and why it is what it is will never solve it.


The problem is that blacks are at a disadvantage from birth because of factors outside their control. Education can help them be more successful, but that doesn't address the root cause of the problem.

Focus, you're getting distracted again.
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#224 Dec 03 2011 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
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JD wrote:
Don't worry; the impulse control will come with age. I understand your words just fine. I have a six year old with about the same grasp of the English language so I'm fairly accustomed to deciphering what you kids sh*t on a page.


Oh, I see. That, my friend, is the result of being in an environment that exceeds your level of understanding. When I was an undergrad attending post-grad colloquiums, I too understood the words said but didn't have a clue on the mentioned concept. After a few sessions, I began to understand more and more. If you spent more time trying to expand your mind and less time deriding me with recycled calumnies, then this discussion would sound less like a "six year old" discussion and more like something that you can actually comprehend.

JD wrote:
Right, because the practical application of which would be used for a purpose other than the accumulation of wealth.


What? You just can't throw money at a problem and expect it to be fixed. You'll just end right back up in the same situation again later.

JD wrote:
I'd also disagree with your inference that "the people" (and by "the people", I assume you mean "those people" {and by "those people" I mean "black" people}) are ignorant, lazy under-achievers.


That was never an implication. If you actually read my posts, then you would have read where I said that I wasn't implying that any group of people weren't educated. The problem is when society creates this environment to support and reward mediocrity and below. That creates a new standard for the said group and they will work hard to reach that goal. If that problem is BELOW average, then you have successfully set that group of people up for failure.

It isn't laziness on their end, it's a constitutional set back for individuals that results in people not obtaining the standard.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#225 Dec 03 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Alma wrote:

Although, money is a huge factor, just tossing money at that problem without properly defining what the problem is and why it is what it is will never solve it.


The problem is that blacks are at a disadvantage from birth because of factors outside their control. Education can help them be more successful, but that doesn't address the root cause of the problem.

Focus, you're getting distracted again.


ALOT OF PEOPLE ARE DISADVANTAGED from birth. As a black American, I am, by birth, more advantaged than many people around the world.

I am not denying any disadvantage. How ironic of you to say that I'm being distracted and off focus. Your entire question was how to close that gap and the only answer is overall knowledge, goals and motivation. You have yet, proven otherwise.

Explain to me how money outweighs overall knowledge, goals and motivation in reference to success.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#226 Dec 03 2011 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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money lets you attain overall knowledge and goals you dolt. You need money to get schooling, and you need money to realize goals.
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#227 Dec 03 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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A LOT is not ONE WORD.

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#228 Dec 03 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#229 Dec 03 2011 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
Alma wrote:
Explain to me how money outweighs overall knowledge, goals and motivation in reference to success.


Focus. I've explained to you that education does not resolve the root cause of the disadvantages black people face in America. Again, I'm asking you to attempt to resolve them.

Education, AA, & minority scholarships can help solve the income inequality & later on possibly effect their generational wealth for their next generations but it does NOT solve the fact that they were at a disadvantage from birth. Great, you're still at an advantage OVER some folks somewhere in the world- but that doesn't matter in an Affirmative Action thread since we're talking about US policy.

US policy is currently to ignore the problem, since most of the people in power refuse to even acknowledge it exists let alone want to do anything about it. It's one of the many drawbacks to Capitalism, while it's certainly possible to work hard and make money coming from little to nothing, the odds of it actually happening are miniscule. The reality is that where you start from is the biggest contributing factor to who you can become. And, since a large part of the black population starts at a disadvantage because of slavery and economic policies made by & made for white people, that disadvantage is growing as opposed to shrinking even with AA.

Disagree with me all you like, but instead of throwing a hissy fit I'd love to hear how you would solve the problem.

("Education", again, does not do so.)
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#230 Dec 04 2011 at 4:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Focus. I've explained to you that education does not resolve the root cause of the disadvantages black people face in America. Again, I'm asking you to attempt to resolve them.

Education, AA, & minority scholarships can help solve the income inequality & later on possibly effect their generational wealth for their next generations but it does NOT solve the fact that they were at a disadvantage from birth. Great, you're still at an advantage OVER some folks somewhere in the world- but that doesn't matter in an Affirmative Action thread since we're talking about US policy.

US policy is currently to ignore the problem, since most of the people in power refuse to even acknowledge it exists let alone want to do anything about it. It's one of the many drawbacks to Capitalism, while it's certainly possible to work hard and make money coming from little to nothing, the odds of it actually happening are miniscule. The reality is that where you start from is the biggest contributing factor to who you can become. And, since a large part of the black population starts at a disadvantage because of slavery and economic policies made by & made for white people, that disadvantage is growing as opposed to shrinking even with AA.

Disagree with me all you like, but instead of throwing a hissy fit I'd love to hear how you would solve the problem.

("Education", again, does not do so.)


There is no way to change how and when you were born! The only thing that you can do is move up. The only reason why a ethnic minority is at a disadvantage from birth is based on the current status of their ethnicity. So, the solution is to change the current status of their ethnicity. The only way to do that is to be self-sufficient and productive and you can't be self-sufficient and productive without the knowledge and know how to be so.

If you're self-sufficient, then you are not at a disadvantage.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#231 Dec 04 2011 at 6:14 AM Rating: Good
It's harder to become self-sufficient if you are starting from a disadvantage. You see a road race where one guy has to carry a 50 pound chunk of lead, and you just tell him that if he wants to have a shot, he just needs to work harder.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#232 Dec 04 2011 at 6:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
It's harder to become self-sufficient if you are starting from a disadvantage. You see a road race where one guy has to carry a 50 pound chunk of lead, and you just tell him that if he wants to have a shot, he just needs to work harder.


I didn't say it was easy. If it were easy, then it really wouldn't be a "disadvantage". The point is that the only way to close that advantage gap is to become self-sufficient. A person born into a self-sufficient family isn't at a disadvantage.

We can't change the past. At one point, someone will have to take one for the team and work harder than others. That is why many older black Americans who lived throught the 60's are ashamed and upset to see how their work lead to the younger generation being ignorant. If people aren't educated on how they need to behave, they will only revert back to the past.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#233 Dec 04 2011 at 6:42 AM Rating: Good
Have you seen an inner city school vs. a nice suburban one? Most of these kids are already 'taking one for the team.' You are right about a good education being the key, so why aren't we making it happen? I'm amazed at people who want to get rid of affirmative action before actually giving minorities the tools they need to pull ahead without safeguards.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#234 Dec 04 2011 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
Have you seen an inner city school vs. a nice suburban one? Most of these kids are already 'taking one for the team.' You are right about a good education being the key, so why aren't we making it happen? I'm amazed at people who want to get rid of affirmative action before actually giving minorities the tools they need to pull ahead without safeguards.


I never said to get rid of Affirmative Action. I was against the idea that Affirmative Action will close the gap as Vageta is proclaiming.

Unless those kids are succeeding, then that's not what I meant by "taking one for the team". By taking one for the team, I mean having to work harder to get where you are at, so your children will have to work less.
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#235 Dec 04 2011 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
That's fair enough, but I can't stress enough that hard work will only take someone so far when they are starting at a huge disadvantage. Personally, I don't think that affirmative action is the best possible solution, but it's certainly better than nothing.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#236 Dec 04 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
That's fair enough, but I can't stress enough that hard work will only take someone so far when they are starting at a huge disadvantage. Personally, I don't think that affirmative action is the best possible solution, but it's certainly better than nothing.


You are correct. I have foreign friends that are working twice as hard as any of my US friends, but with very little success. It's the environment that they were born in. I approve of AA for that initial bump, but if we aren't taught how to properly benefit from that bump, it will only be a temporary help. That temporary help is not the "best solution" to close the gap as Vageta proclaims.
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#237 Dec 04 2011 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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You know how you can get rid of AA? Socialised education.

Edited, Dec 4th 2011 8:09pm by Nilatai
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#238 Dec 04 2011 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
Alma wrote:
The only reason why a ethnic minority is at a disadvantage from birth is based on the current status of their ethnicity.


2nd class citizen is ok with you? Seriously? What the fuck are you fighting for then?

Alma wrote:
That temporary help is not the "best solution" to close the gap as Vageta proclaims.


Cite?

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#240 Dec 05 2011 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
Nilatai wrote:
You know how you can get rid of AA? Socialised education.

Edited, Dec 4th 2011 8:09pm by Nilatai
Money and family connections are much better determining factors for deciding who gets a seat at a good university than merit and intelligence.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#241 Dec 05 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Vageta wrote:

2nd class citizen is ok with you? Seriously? What the **** are you fighting for then?


Being "disadvantaged" and a "2nd class citizen" are two completely different terms. You're just making stuff up now. A "1st class citizen" can be disadvantaged.

Vageta wrote:
Cite?


Dude, we already went over this. This is how this thread was created. You stated something along the lines of "until there is something better than affirmative action, I will support it", which means that you do not believe that there is anything else better than AA.

If you want to play dumb, let's play dumb. If you want to pretend that you were supporting the idea that AA is currently the best solution present, then please present me a solution that is more effective than AA.

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#242 Dec 05 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
You know how you can get rid of AA? Socialised education.

Edited, Dec 4th 2011 8:09pm by Nilatai
Money and family connections are much better determining factors for deciding who gets a seat at a good university than merit and intelligence.

Maybe in the USA. Smiley: wink
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#243 Dec 05 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
Omegavegeta wrote:
However, it fails to address the fact that for no other reason than the fact that one was born the descendant of a slave, they & their ancestors have been at a disadvantage.

Except that's not true. And until we as a society stop focusing on that false assumption, we can't possibly hope to solve the problem.


Listen, I'm not saying that the only reason that blacks are still predominately poor is because they descended from slaves, but it is & has been a contributing factor.


Jesus F'ing Christ. Are you kidding me?

Quote:
Furthermore, most white's don't even see it as a problem to solve so using "generational wealth" as something that's distracting us from the "real" problem is completely bogus.


Ok. But the habitual refusal to look at anything but the BS "descendants of slaves" angle prevents us from addressing the far more significant causes of that wealth gap. Even when I pointed it out to you, you backpedaled, but *still* failed to look at anything else.

Quote:
The "real" problem, that we can do something about, is our economic policies that further exasperate the wealth inequality between blacks & whites.

Linky


The Fedral Reserve wrote:
...the net worth of the typical African American family in 2007 was just 10 percent of the net worth of the typical white family — down from 12 percent in 2004. Put another way: For every $1 held by whites five years ago, blacks had 12 cents. Three years later, they had a dime.


It should be noted that these numbers are from before the recent economic collapse. Why did this happen?


That's a good question. Do you think it happened because they are descendants of slaves? Or maybe it happened because of government treating them differently because they are descendants of slaves? I'm going with the latter.

Quote:
Article wrote:
That the wealth disparity is so wide is largely attributable to prejudiced policies both public and private. Advocates and academics point out that some of the largest federal benefit programs of the last century propped up whites but largely excluded minorities. The Federal Housing Administration, for example, provided $120 billion in low-interest mortgage loans beginning in the 1930s, yet less than 2 percent went to minorities before 1962, Liu found. And the Depression-era Home Owners’ Loan Corporation, created to modify mortgages to prevent foreclosures, benefited no minorities whatsoever, she said.

More recently, Harvard University discovered that, among blacks and whites of similar incomes, lenders targeted blacks more often for sub-prime loans, even when those minority borrowers were eligible for less risky arrangements.


So, we need to change some economic policies to start.


Yes. Get rid of (or dramatically alter) the Community Reinvestment Act. You do realize that the reason blacks were more often steered into sub prime loans is *because* those programs were advertised and supported politically as programs designed to help poor and minority people become home owners. It's an affirmative action program embedded into FHA. How can you tout how many black people you helped become home owners if you don't steer black people into the program?


Do you see how the "help" isn't really helping? That's what I'm trying to say.

Quote:
Ending the Bush tax cuts would certainly help...


How? For the love of God tell me how you think one has anything to do with the other?

Quote:
...but rest assured that won't happen so the income gap will keep widening between the races.


We're not likely to try Bush for war crimes related to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan either, so by your logic that's responsible for a wealth gap between the races too? One has nothing to do with the other, but it's bizarre how you're trying to tie the failure to do one to the failure to fix the other.

Quote:
Throw some money into low-income education though it might benefit a black persons income over their lifetime, give them a slight chance to increase the wealth they pass onto their descendants, & will help ease the white man's burden.


We've thrown tons of money into low-income education. We've thrown tons of money into low-income housing. How's that worked out? And how can black people pass wealth on to their descendants if the left wants to take wealth to fund programs for the poor? Do you understand that it's those very social programs which limit opportunities for wealth gain and advancement, right? And those will tend to trap whichever groups were most poor when they were adopted into that poverty.

That's why blacks are the worst off economically. We adopted social programs to "help the poor", and even targeted and justified many of them because of racial economic disparities. But since we did that right about the time we finally removed the legal barriers to success for black people, the net effect has been to keep black people poor. And that's before even looking at how the Dems turned that large population of poor black people into a captive voting pool.


We don't need more money put into those programs. We need less. The only way black people are going to change their collective position is to pursue (and achieve) individual success. And that requires opportunity and the abandonment of the current liberal socio-political approach to black poverty. We need more Rice's and fewer Sharpton's. Arguing to just take more money to fund programs which have not only failed for the last 40 years to address that racial wealth gap, but have arguably made it worse, is absolutely foolish. But so many people are so invested in the assumptions behind those policies, that it's incredibly hard to get them to abandon them as failures.

****, it's hard to get people to just stop repeating the rhetoric and look at the actual issue.
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#244 Dec 06 2011 at 2:05 AM Rating: Good
Alma wrote:
You stated something along the lines of "until there is something better than affirmative action, I will support it", which means that you do not believe that there is anything else better than AA.


Saying "until there is something better than affirmative action, I will support it" is not equivalent to saying "AA is the best & only solution". False Equivalent!

Instead, I'd love to hear you solve the issues of White Privilege, the generational wealth disparity, & economic policies that keep the brotha's down. Ya know, since you know better and everything.

Gbaji wrote:
Jesus F'ing Christ. Are you kidding me?


No; African Americans, the VAST majority whom are descendents of slaves, have been at an economic disadvantage in American society since slavery. This is a fact. If you'd like to dispute it, I'd love to see a cite.

Gbaji wrote:

Ok. But the habitual refusal to look at anything but the BS "descendants of slaves" angle prevents us from addressing the far more significant causes of that wealth gap. Even when I pointed it out to you, you backpedaled, but *still* failed to look at anything else.


What's a bigger contributing factor to how much money someone can make over their lifetime? I thought you agreed it was whom their parents are? If their parents are African Americans, they've descended from slaves & their family has ALWAYS been at a disadvantage. AA addresses this disadvantage for a small percentage of African Americans whom can use it to pass on wealth to THEIR descendents, but I don't feel it goes far enough to solve the cause of that disadvantage.

Gbaji wrote:
Do you think it happened because they are descendants of slaves? Or maybe it happened because of government treating them differently because they are descendants of slaves? I'm going with the latter.


It happened because George W. Bush doesn't care about African Americans & cares more for his rich white friends. I'm sorry, that can't be proven. What CAN be proven is Dubya's economic policies benefited rich white folks MUCH more than poor black folks, which caused the loss in wealth for blacks.

Gbaji wrote:

Yes. Get rid of (or dramatically alter) the Community Reinvestment Act. You do realize that the reason blacks were more often steered into sub prime loans is *because* those programs were advertised and supported politically as programs designed to help poor and minority people become home owners. It's an affirmative action program embedded into FHA. How can you tout how many black people you helped become home owners if you don't steer black people into the program?

Do you see how the "help" isn't really helping? That's what I'm trying to say.


I agree it didn't truly help, but for different reasons and motivations. Those programs were advertised and supported politically as programs designed to help poor and minority people become home owners, but in reality were just another way rich white folks in the banking industry were trying to make cash off of poor black folks whom couldn't afford the loans to begin with. I'm glad they got what was coming to them.

Oh, wait, we just bailed them out & told them not to do it again while doing nothing to help the folks MOST screwed over; the poor black folks whom lost their money & their homes!

Gbaji wrote:
How? For the love of God tell me how you think one has anything to do with the other? We're not likely to try Bush for war crimes related to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan either, so by your logic that's responsible for a wealth gap between the races too? One has nothing to do with the other, but it's bizarre how you're trying to tie the failure to do one to the failure to fix the other.


Erm, the Bush tax cuts disproportionally give rich white folks tax breaks while poor black folks pretty much didn't benefit from them at all. Furthermore, ending them puts more tax revenue into the system that can be used for other things that COULD benefit poor black folks. Don't bother saying "ending tax cuts is a tax increase!" or "ending the tax cuts doesn't create revenue": we've been down that road & I disagree.

Gbaji wrote:
We don't need more money put into those programs. We need less. The only way black people are going to change their collective position is to pursue (and achieve) individual success. And that requires opportunity and the abandonment of the current liberal socio-political approach to black poverty. We need more Rice's and fewer Sharpton's. Arguing to just take more money to fund programs which have not only failed for the last 40 years to address that racial wealth gap, but have arguably made it worse, is absolutely foolish. But so many people are so invested in the assumptions behind those policies, that it's incredibly hard to get them to abandon them as failures.

****, it's hard to get people to just stop repeating the rhetoric and look at the actual issue.


Spoken like someone whom believes he's earned everything he has in life on his own & expects darkies to do the same. But guess what? Some of what you have is unearned. You got it for no other reason than you are a white person, living in a society run (mostly) by & for white people. You've got a MUCH better chance than an African American to: not be in jail, get an education, get a job, get credit, get access to healthcare, get a car, buy a house, get a "good" mortgage...and the list goes on.

If you have any of the above things, you have them in part because you're white. So much for a post racial society, eh?

You're disadvantages: You're less likely to make it in the big leagues (Well, NFL & NBA).



Edited, Dec 6th 2011 3:10am by Omegavegeta
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#245 Dec 06 2011 at 4:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Vageta wrote:
Saying "until there is something better than affirmative action, I will support it" is not equivalent to saying "AA is the best & only solution". False Equivalent!


Almalieque knowing that you would say something along those lines wrote:

If you want to play dumb, let's play dumb. If you want to pretend that you were supporting the idea that AA is currently the best solution present, then please present me a solution that is more effective than AA.


I'm sorry if you fail to understand English, but if you say that there is no better solution at that time, then you are saying it is the best solution at that time. I didn't say "only solution" or "best possible solution ever".. That, my friend, is a false equivalent.

So, please address my quote above. Please present me a solution that you believe is currently more effective than AA.
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#246 Dec 06 2011 at 5:11 AM Rating: Decent
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No; African Americans, the VAST majority whom are descendents of slaves, have been at an economic disadvantage in American society since slavery. This is a fact. If you'd like to dispute it, I'd love to see a cite.


You don't need to cite when you know literally 200x more about a topic then everyone else. At that point it is common knowledge gosh.
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#247 Dec 06 2011 at 6:04 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Furthermore, the "good intent" does not remove its discriminatory roots.
This could have made an interesting topic. I'm going to check out the rest of the thread now.

EDIT: Read most of it.

I want to start by saying I never really lurked here, not in recent years anyway, so I don't know Alma. I should also mention that I am often annoyed by poor grammar. I have had no issues understanding what Alma is trying to say and I'm just going to assume that most of that trashing was because it's fashionable.

ON TOPIC! I agree with points from all of you but as one wise poster early in the thread was getting at we need to clean up our inner cities. Alma is right about one thing, the fact that slavery is a root cause is pretty irrelevant. **** the fact that they're black is irrelevant. The problem is there's a large group of Americans stuck in the cycle of poverty.

Statistically black families are more likely to be born in an oppressive environment. (Premise)
Statistically black families are less fortunate then white families. (Conclusion)

Seems to follow, no? I admit that the argument still works if you change the premise to black families are more likely to have slave ancestors. The problem is this is only true because if your ancestors were slaves you're more likely to be born into an oppressive environment.

That said racism is a problem, but not a financial one. To end racism the first step is probably to stop recognizing it as an important stat and for society to continue to reject racial bigots. (Actually I'm okay with rejecting all bigots.) Maybe one day someone smarter and more charismatic then myself will propose some sort of Final Solution to end all bigotry.


Edited, Dec 6th 2011 8:30am by SillyXSara
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#248 Dec 06 2011 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to check out the rest of the thread now.
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#249 Dec 06 2011 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
SillyXSara wrote:
I'm going to check out the rest of the thread now.
Just drive rusty shrapnel under your fingernails and save yourself from the pain now.
I thought about it, but I just clipped my nails. I haven't been able to sleep for a couple days and I found trying to put together a coherent response to this mess rather soothing.
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#250 Dec 06 2011 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
Alma wrote:
If you want to pretend that you were supporting the idea that AA is currently the best solution present, then please present me a solution that is more effective than AA.


Until I see a solution "better" than AA that addresses these issues, imma support AA. You might persuade me something else could be better, but you have yet to do so.

SillyS wrote:
ON TOPIC! I agree with points from all of you but as one wise poster early in the thread was getting at we need to clean up our inner cities. Alma is right about one thing, the fact that slavery is a root cause is pretty irrelevant. **** the fact that they're black is irrelevant. The problem is there's a large group of Americans stuck in the cycle of poverty.


It's hard to ignore the fact that the large group of Americans stuck in a cycle of poverty are African Americans, especially in an AA thread, dear.

Sillys wrote:
Statistically black families are more likely to be born in an oppressive environment. (Premise)
Statistically black families are less fortunate then white families. (Conclusion)

Seems to follow, no? I admit that the argument still works if you change the premise to black families are more likely to have slave ancestors. The problem is this is only true because if your ancestors were slaves you're more likely to be born into an oppressive environment.


"Statistically" rather downplays these facts. Replace it with "The VAST majority of" in your example & the truth is a little harder to swallow, eh?

Sillys wrote:

That said racism is a problem, but not a financial one. To end racism the first step is probably to stop recognizing it as an important stat and for society to continue to reject racial bigots. (Actually I'm okay with rejecting all bigots.) Maybe one day someone smarter and more charismatic then myself will propose some sort of Final Solution to end all bigotry.


American society already pretty much ostracizes bigots, which is a good thing. However, because even the vast majority of whites do so they tend to think American is "post racial", making it easy for them to miss the fact that we're really not.

Edited, Dec 6th 2011 9:34am by Omegavegeta
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#251 Dec 06 2011 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just going to leave this here.
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