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#302 Jul 29 2012 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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I think using history as a fact basis for the application of technology is oxymoronic.
#303 Jul 29 2012 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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paulsol wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
paulsol wrote:
Totem wrote:
Getting back to the original topic, I'd like to put forward the opinion that the gang that has been openly raping and pillaging this country since 1990 isn't the GOP or the Democrats. It's the Ivy League. They're just different turds dropping from the same a$$hole. Can I get a witness?

Totem


/Raises hand. Well said.

Also. I would say that 'Belief in the Cause' is the deciding factor in the outcome of any conflict. The side that has its heart in the fight is the one who will come out on top, regardless of firepower.....It may take time and turn into a lengthy insurgency type scenario, but the side with their hearts in it will eventually come out on top. Every time.

After all, who really wants to die for something that they don't totally believe in?


Yes, the power of heart can overcome automatic weapons, military armor and atomic fire.

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... No wait, you're serious?

[i]ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah......etc.




Unfortunately, the history of international armed conflict does not support your feeble attempt at derision.

You should run for government office. With the grasp of history that you seem to possess you'd fit right in.

Can you provide one instance where "wanting it hard enough" has liberated a country?

I can provide literally hundreds of examples where superior firepower, strategy and power has won out.
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#304 Jul 29 2012 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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Guenny wrote:
I think using history as a fact basis for the application of technology is oxymoronic.


Yes, because people have never had new tech before.
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#305 Jul 29 2012 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Can you provide one instance where "wanting it hard enough" has liberated a country?

It's like you want to be disappointed.
#306 Jul 29 2012 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:

Can you provide one instance where "wanting it hard enough" has liberated a country?

I can provide literally hundreds of examples where superior firepower, strategy and power has won out.


'Won out'? What does that even mean in terms of war-fighting? If you mean it killed the most people, that maybe true, but its a pretty crass way to define victory

What I'm talking about tho' is if a superior force attacks an inferior force in its ( the inferior forces) own territory, then fire power and technology is not ever going to be enough to defeat the inferior force (Unless of course you kill every last person able to resist. Is that what you meant?). Hence the relentless and ultimately futile efforts of the US led forces in Iraq to win over the 'hearts and minds' of the occupied peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Anyway, you asked for an example. Heres a few.....

Afghanistan v Great Britain. 18th Century. (Twice)

Afghanistan v USSR 19th Century ( a pattern forming there!)

Somalia v USA

Vietnam v USA

Korea V USA

Iraq v USA and the coalition of the (lol)willing.

Israel v Palestinians

Etc.

Also.
Guenny wrote:

I think using history as a fact basis for the application of technology is oxymoronic.


A flint tipped spear is Hi-tech to someone carrying a knobbly stick for defence. Just sayin'.
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#307 Jul 29 2012 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Iraq v USA and the coalition of the (lol)willing


The US crushed Saddam's forces and installed a new gov't.

Quote:
Israel v Palestinians


Tiny nation with big guns survives in a sea of unfriendly less armed nations. Continuously displaces Palestinians.

Quote:
Vietnam v USA


This one is really a two-parter, The US crushes N viet force for a while then leaves. Then N. viet, armed by Russia/China crushes the S viet forces who they heavily outgun.
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#308 Jul 30 2012 at 1:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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The US crushed Saddam's forces and installed a new gov't.
... And in ONE day last week 29 bombing attacks in 19 cities, killing 111 civilian and wounding another 235. Today 13 Iraqis were killed and 30 more were wounded in attacks. Good work!

Quote:
Tiny nation with big guns survives in a sea of unfriendly less armed nations. Continuously displaces Palestinians.


Israel spends US$13,001,000,000 annually on its military. The Palestinians are still there and unless the Israelis kill every last one of them, they will still be resisting the occupation. Which sorta proves my point.

Quote:
This one is really a two-parter, The US crushes N viet force for a while then leaves. Then N. viet, armed by Russia/China crushes the S viet forces who they heavily outgun.


Make all the excuses you feel the need for, but at the end of the day the greatest military machine in the world lost the will to lose any more of its personnel or spend any more money on a fight against an enemy that was fighting in pyjamas and flip-flops and using weapons left over from WWII. All the jets, helicopters and state of the art chemical weapons wern't enough to subdue a population that was fighting for a belief against an enemy who had no idea what they were fighting for. Which again, proves my point.
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#309 Jul 30 2012 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
paulsol wrote:
Quote:
The US crushed Saddam's forces and installed a new gov't.
... And in ONE day last week 29 bombing attacks in 19 cities, killing 111 civilian and wounding another 235. Today 13 Iraqis were killed and 30 more were wounded in attacks. Good work!


And Saddam executed hundreds of thousands, and the US occupation killed somewhere on that order of magnitude.

It's an unstable region with a history of sectarian violence. This isn't me justifying the killings, just try looking at magnitude and scope.

[
Quote:
quote]Tiny nation with big guns survives in a sea of unfriendly less armed nations. Continuously displaces Palestinians.


Israel spends US$13,001,000,000 annually on its military. The Palestinians are still there and unless the Israelis kill every last one of them, they will still be resisting the occupation. Which sorta proves my point.


And so will the IRA, but last I checked England still runs northern Ireland.
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#310 Jul 30 2012 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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This isn't me justifying the killings,


Yes. It is. And its also irrelevant to what we were talking about.

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And so will the IRA, but last I checked England still runs northern Ireland.


The UK / N. Ireland situation and the Palestinian/ Israeli are utterly different. Perhaps you should read up on both?

Anyway, I proved my point. Further discussion with you about it would be pointless.
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#311 Jul 30 2012 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
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This isn't me justifying the killings,


Yes. It is. And its also irrelevant to what we were talking about.


Baffling, simply baffling. I'm arguing that military assets win wars, not a greater desire to win. Not the morality of war.


Quote:
Quote:
And so will the IRA, but last I checked England still runs northern Ireland.


The UK / N. Ireland situation and the Palestinian/ Israeli are utterly different. Perhaps you should read up on both?

Anyway, I proved my point. Further discussion with you about it would be pointless.


They are absolutely different situations. But in both cases superior military power allows for occupation. If that's now you're point, you proved it.
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#312 Jul 30 2012 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Hell. I've lost track of who's arguing what at this point, but really?

paulsol wrote:
Israel spends US$13,001,000,000 annually on its military.


I'm not even asking for precise fact checking here. But even a vague idea of the ballpark ranges of nations budgets would help.

Edited, Jul 30th 2012 2:54pm by gbaji
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#313 Jul 30 2012 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Hell. I've lost track of who's arguing what at this point, but really?

paulsol wrote:
Israel spends US$13,001,000,000 annually on its military.


I'm not even asking for precise fact checking here. But even a vague idea of the ballpark ranges of nations budgets would help.

Edited, Jul 30th 2012 2:54pm by gbaji


I just like the odd inclusion of a 1 in a insignificant place.
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#314 Jul 30 2012 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Apparently, that one was feeling left out or something. Dunno.
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#315 Jul 30 2012 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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I assumed that went to pay Dr. Evil, and I quote, "1 millioooon dollars, Muhahahaha".
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#316 Jul 30 2012 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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I thought it was more like, Israel *receives* US $13B for its military.
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#317 Jul 30 2012 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
I thought it was more like, Israel *receives* US $13B for its military.


I actually thought he meant 13 Trillion dollars (hence my initial response). So I cant count sets of zeros. But why make a point of presenting that number like it's huge, if you're only talking about $13 Billion? Guess I'm just confused about that little factoid all the way around (I'm blaming it on the extra one!). OMG! Israel, a nation surrounded by much larger nations, most of which have publicly stated a desire to destroy it and some of which have attempted to do so militarily twice in the past, spends as much on their military as the US spends on their school lunch program. Alert the damn media!

Edited, Jul 30th 2012 5:45pm by gbaji
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#318 Jul 30 2012 at 7:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Considering $13B puts them as the #3 country on a per capita basis, it is a significant number. In actual dollars, it still ranks them 18th in the world.

Just because the US is absurd in it's military spending doesn't mean Israel isn't excessive as well.
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#319 Jul 30 2012 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Are we still sending an equal amount of military aid to Egypt?
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#320 Jul 30 2012 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Considering $13B puts them as the #3 country on a per capita basis, it is a significant number. In actual dollars, it still ranks them 18th in the world.

Just because the US is absurd in it's military spending doesn't mean Israel isn't excessive as well.


The US's military spending is excessive, but I'm not sure Israel's is. It's high, but look at a map of military spending as a percentage of GDP. That whole region is high, and they have many enemies.
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#321 Jul 30 2012 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
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but I'm not sure Israel's is.


That will be all those Nukes they have 'hidden' in the Negev. They always are a bit of a money pit.
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#322 Jul 30 2012 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah. $13B out of $68B total budget isn't really excessive. Doubly so given the circumstances they're in. I don't think that per-capita is a very good way to measure since it gives you no idea what other things cost relative to that number. Guess I'm still puzzled what Paul's point was other than to take a stab at Israel.
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#323 Aug 03 2012 at 4:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
Are we still sending an equal amount of military aid to Egypt?


Of course not. They're no longer our dictatorial puppet. And they don't have the domestic political strength ala Israel or Cuba Floridians to puppet us. We've washed our hands of them and revisioned our history to actually supporting democracy there. Things are continuing effectively to maintain our interests, don't fret.
#324 Aug 03 2012 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok, we're not sending Egypt as much as I thought we were. I seem to recall hearing some time ago that Egypt and Israel received the same amount of funding from us, but it's only $1.3Bn.
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#325 Aug 03 2012 at 7:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Yeah. $13B out of $68B total budget isn't really excessive. Doubly so given the circumstances they're in. I don't think that per-capita is a very good way to measure since it gives you no idea what other things cost relative to that number. Guess I'm still puzzled what Paul's point was other than to take a stab at Israel.


Right, this is why I offered percentage of GDP as an appropriate measuring tool.
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#326 Aug 04 2012 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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I guess it's time for a new topic.

So, how do you guys feel about the 4th amendment not applying to almost 2/3 of US citizens?

Hilariously enough, ~90% of NE, (which is indirectly the source of the 4th amendment via the quartering act) is covered by the unlimited search and seizure region.
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