Transgender rightsFollow

I've used that word several times. The fact that you felt it worthy to be singled out as if it were some kind of precocious action, only demonstrates your inability to provide a valid point.



Maybe you should look up words before debating their meanings.



How does any of that matter if a man decides to be associated as a woman? You seriously can't be such a hypocritical ignoramus to believe that it's "ok" to label someone's sexuality a "lifestyle CHOICE" when you deem fit.



Which is perfectly ok as long as there aren't any discriminating laws/rules/practices based on sex. If there are separate bathrooms for men and women, then it has absolutely nothing to do with "what you identify yourself as", but predetermined criteria. If you're going to let anyone define their criteria, then there is no point in having the discrimination. It's really that simple.

I'd invest a lot more in that argument if it wasn't, to the best of my knowledge, completely legal for a man to use a woman's bathroom. There's nothing stopping a creep from entering them right now besides the social pressure that he not do so. And maybe this is naive of me, but I'm inclined to say that societal pressure has rarely actually stopped someone from acting on their desires. Act on them with less frequency, sure. But someone who is turned on by peeping is probably going to peep.

I don't see why the procedure for dealing with this would change at all. If someone's making you uncomfortable, you confront him, you ignore it, you report it to management, or you call the cops.

I may be wrong--maybe those laws do exist. I only gave it a quick once-over on google. But it seems to me that these distinctions aren't a matter of public policy, but a personal choice on part of the owner of whoever operates those restrooms. But I really don't think a societal acceptance that people should use the bathrooms they feel comfortable in would translate into an increased rate of lewd behavior in restrooms.

If anything, I imagine the long term desexualization of sex-specific areas like restrooms would reduce these rates.

[EDIT]

I'm laughing so hard right now. "Precocious," "ignoramus?" I can only imagine what Alma will be like in another 4 months.

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 7:39pm by idiggory

A male entering a woman's restroom would likely be grounds for ejection by management whether he was peering over stalls or making ******* motions or not. Simple and pretty cut 'n dry. Unless you're saying this rule shouldn't change regardless of the male's personal gender identity, I don't think you want the procedure to stay the same.


This is as silly as "Someone who wants to kill will just kill, gun or no." Allowing someone carte blanche to enter restrooms of the opposite sex opens up far more possibilities with far more ease than drilling holes in the walls or trying to hide cameras in the paper towel dispenser.

I don't know, it's fucking Tennessee. If it's even remotely similar to New York then you're not going to be arrested but you won't have any grounds to argue if the management denies you or asks you to leave either.

Your biggest complaint will more than likely come from women for the same reason why martial arts, wrestling, etc. have weight classes. People want to win. Someone at 6'1/180 lbs vs someone at 6'0/174 lbs is a fairer fight then anyone of them fighting someone at 5'6/130 lbs, regardless of their sex.

Look at it from the other point of view. Is that something you really want to brag about? Fighting someone half your size? So, the intent is to make the competition as equal as possible. Then and only then can you truly say that you're the winner.



This is correct.



That is false by definition.

This would probably be less of an issue if the US would actually pass a bill allowing transgendered peoples to change their legal sex. It's hard to realistically discuss procedure when trans politics is in shambles across the board.

Only 5 states will allow you to change your legal sex without first going through reassignment surgery, and only 1 of them will do it without a court order. The result is that the overwhelming majority of trans peoples in the US are legally considered the sex opposite of the gender identity they possess. This realistically grants them almost no protections in their day-to-day lives.

If you were a trans woman trying to use a woman's restroom, and your license designated you as a woman, it would be in the establishment's best interest to allow you to use that restroom. Forcing you to use the mens room would be politically destructive for them. Even if no trans protection laws were passed preventing that, the political ******** that would follow would teach business owners very quickly that it was in their best interest to accept the legal designation.

And, assuming states got off their asses and passed protection bills (I say knowing that these don't even exist for gay men and women in most states), they wouldn't be able to deny a patron access to the bathrooms outright on the grounds that they were trans, as that would clearly warrant a civil rights violation.

But I have serious difficulty imagining any sizable population of people would request a change to their legal gender identity simply to give them a slightly better opportunity to peep on women in the restroom.

At the end of the day, at least in my opinion, the real issue is that we're talking about a group of people who have next to no protections under the law, and possibly even less social support than that. Trans is barely recognized as being an actual social group, let alone one that needs protection. And considering they're always under scrutiny, that's the real issue.

Sexuality is the sum of your sexual preferences. It's what gets you horny. It includes, but is not limited to: the sexes and genders you are attracted to (sexual orientation), your kinks and fetishes, the frequency with which you desire sexual activity or release, the way in which you achieve sexual release, etc.

Your sex is the biological sex you were born with. Most humans fall within the binary of male or female, but as many as 2% of humans are to some degree intersex and may identify as either or both sexes.

Your gender is an identity that is formed as a result of both biological and environmental phenomena. When your gender matches your sex, you are a cis- (man, woman). When your gender does not match your sex, you are a trans- (man, woman, or just trans). You may indentify as genderqueer, where you have a gender identity that does not fall on the typical spectrum of masculine/feminine. You may have a fluid gender, sometimes considering yourself one thing, sometimes another. You may have no gender identity at all.

Your sexuality is not defined by what you identify as or your sex. Our words may change, but a trans person may be attracted to cis-men, trans-men, cis-women, trans-women, those in between, no one, and any combination thereof. Your sexuality may be that you are attracted only to male-gendered females (as in trans men who have not used medical means to alter their bodies). None of this has to do with the sex or gender identity you possess.

There, enjoy your definitions.

[EDIT]

Oh my god, it just keeps getting better.

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 8:31pm by idiggory

So how do you propose to enforce it? Have someone at the door to check IDs? Profiling? You'd probably need someone good at spotting fake IDs. And how about non residents? And who exactly gets to have their IDs and birth certificates changed? People that just feel like they are in the wrong body, or people who start going through the process of having their gender changed? Are we going to revisit this topic when it's not fair that only people with money get to and the poor don't or people slipping an extra $20 at the DMV to have a different gender on their driver's license. I'm all for fighting for equality but don't sit there and pretend that it's as easy as signing a piece of paper.

Also I want to go on record and say that I find it ridiculous there's a battle over a hole to **** and shit in.

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 8:52pm by lolgaxe

Any and every Biologist and medical doctor will tell you that this is the case, and why. Men and Women's bodies are layed out differently inside, and that's NOT just the genitals. Men have a completely different vein layout, allowing more blood to be pumped to their outer muscles. For the same length of bone, men also have longer tendons. The outcome is a roughly 10% difference in athletic* ability between the sexes

Women's bodies are focused more on the internal organs. If you slapped a womb and a ****** and a fetus in an otherwise male body, the pregnant man could not live through childbirth even with a cesarean section. He probably couldn't even live through late stage pregnancy, where all the organs usually laid out in the abdomen are all thrust up together into the rib-cage, and the lungs are squeezed right up just under the neck in an area no larger than the size of an orange, for both of them.

* "athletic" used in the broadest sense of the word.

Which definition is that...?

ETA: Forgot to add, thanks, Ari. I didn't realize all that. That's interesting.

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 9:16pm by Belkira

No really, we already have rules in place for this. If a heterosexual woman starts behaving unacceptably to a heterosexual woman in a bathroom, according to a common sense definition as determined by a jury of her peers, then protections are up in place. Just the same as if a trans woman started behaving unacceptably to a heterosexual woman in a bathroom. If you will accept a personal anecdote, I shared public bathrooms in four different venues, twice a week, for three years, with trans women, and not once did one of them make me feel uncomfortable by her behavior.

What we would be doing would be to segregate toilets not by simplistic sex, but by a the more nuanced and practical/wanted segregation by sexuality/orientation. The bis like me are just going to have to continue with bloody good bathroom etiquette and manners.

But if it's breaking people's brains, I don't mind having toilets marked "Men's", "Women's", "Disabled" and "Other"