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Elon Musk's vision of AmericaFollow

#27 Nov 14 2013 at 7:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It's almost as though they care more about eliminating cars than they do about implementing efficient rail systems.
Fire-breathing iron horses of hell; banish them back to the nether! Smiley: mad

My understanding is there was this sweet spot for high speed rail where it made sense. Cars are slow but very convenient to use, planes are fast, but airports are very spread out and taking the plane can be quite a time-intensive process (you're catching the cab into town from the random farm field they had to put the giant airport in, getting there early, waiting in security lines, etc). High speed rail was supposed to be a comfy in-between, perfect for trips of a couple hundred miles or so.

America just doesn't have cities spaces at that distance enough to justify the country-wide investment. Southern California and the north-east are nice locations for it, but other places just don't have the population spacing and the geography to make it a sensible choice.

Or something like that. Smiley: um

Edited, Nov 14th 2013 5:27pm by someproteinguy
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#28 Nov 14 2013 at 7:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
What's baffling though is that it seems as though rail advocates don't want to put rail where it would be more useful and less expensive but want to focus on putting it where existing high traffic areas (especially freeways) already are. It's almost as though they care more about eliminating cars than they do about implementing efficient rail systems.
Or...it's almost as though the freeways were largely laid down next to existing rail lines because those had been laid out for efficiency. So laying new rail lines in the same vicinity would be............not unusual at all and not require you to don your aluminium sombrero.
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#29 Nov 14 2013 at 8:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why would I ever pay to travel somewhere when books can already take me there for free?
#30 Nov 14 2013 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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because sometimes one barnes and noble runs out of a book but a different one has it!
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#31 Nov 14 2013 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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Besides, you're probably paying for the books in some way.
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#32 Nov 14 2013 at 9:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Catwho wrote:
This is a really cool infographic of what a "hyperloop" connected country would look like.

The map doesn't take into account any mountain ranges, I notice. Pesky mountains! Good thing they'll all be gone in West Virginia, at this rate.

The idea of being able to zip from Atlanta to San Francisco in under four hours is very appealing, though.


The problem is that you won't be able to. If you look closely at the map, the travel times assume direct point to point travel with no stops in-between. The problem, of course, is that you have all those other dots in-between and only one tube for those cars to travel through (if you have more than one, then the costs skyrocket above those projected). The claimed time to travel from Los Angeles to Salinas is 37 minutes, to Santa Cruz is 40 minutes, to San Jose is 43 minutes, and San Fransisco is 46 minutes. Obviously, the extra 3 minutes for each longer distance doesn't take into account stopping and loading/unloading passengers along each stop before continuing on. Of course, they could have certain times of day with express routes, but then that means less times when you can hit spots in-between (so fewer routes, thus fewer travelers, thus less money). Also, the longer the distance the more impact on shorter routes any sort of express run will have (cause no other routes in-between can be running at the same time). So you could maybe do a once a day express run from Los Angeles to San Fransisco, but trying to do an express run between Los Angeles and New York? Not going to work.

They're seriously sugar coating the numbers of a system like this and just plain ignoring some serious draw backs.

Edited, Nov 14th 2013 1:19pm by gbaji


It's fairly easy to envision an exit routing system that would allow for multiple target locations per entrance point. Since it's all electric you just need a control circuit at the start and end and standard powered tubing through the main section. loading/unloading thusly wouldn't be done on the circuit, but on a entrance segment that would rotate through.
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#33 Nov 14 2013 at 11:48 PM Rating: Good
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quick mock up for the imagination impaired Not to scale, etc.
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#34 Nov 15 2013 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira wrote:
It seems to be cheaper than driving or flying in Europe....


Only because in Europe they massively tax cars and gasoline and massively subsidize their train systems. So while the ticket cost right in front of you to go from point A to point B is less expensive, it's artificially made so. This is actually one of the more infuriating aspects of mass transit because the levels of deception involved with regard to cost is pretty ridiculous (and in some cases is so entrenched that people don't even realize they're participating in such deception).



What's wrong with that, exactly, and how is that deceiving anyone? The people know what they're paying taxes for. They obviously want to discourage too many people from using cars in favor of mass transit. Its kind of like how they used to tax people who had beards because for some reason they thought they were untidy at the time. Europe has been using taxes that way since pretty much forever.

Edited, Nov 15th 2013 9:15am by Kuwoobie
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#35 Nov 15 2013 at 3:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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To gbaji people knowing things is an act of deception.
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#36 Nov 15 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira wrote:
It seems to be cheaper than driving or flying in Europe....


Only because in Europe they massively tax cars and gasoline and massively subsidize their train systems. So while the ticket cost right in front of you to go from point A to point B is less expensive, it's artificially made so. This is actually one of the more infuriating aspects of mass transit because the levels of deception involved with regard to cost is pretty ridiculous (and in some cases is so entrenched that people don't even realize they're participating in such deception).
I know Europeans have trouble grasping how large the US is but you must have as much trouble with grasping how small Europe can be, public transport (and cycling in the Netherlands) are promoted because there's just no room for all the cars and being squeezed in a train for an hour to get to work may very well be preferable over being stuck in your car for 3 hours in a traffic jam.

It's also a great way for students to move around as they get free public transport during either the week or the weekend and few students can afford to own a car, if only because getting a driver's license can easily run you €2000 ($2700ish) and if you live in a large city, as many students do, just parking your car can cost you hundreds of euros a year (cities built before cars and all that).

That said if you're traveling in a group cars are almost always cheaper anyway, even if you keep in mind the parking costs and €1.80 per liter of gas. Although I think the railway company has started some actions where everyone past the first person gets their ticket for a fraction of the price if you travel in groups.
#37 Nov 15 2013 at 7:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Belkira wrote:
It seems to be cheaper than driving or flying in Europe....


Only because in Europe they massively tax cars and gasoline and massively subsidize their train systems. So while the ticket cost right in front of you to go from point A to point B is less expensive, it's artificially made so. This is actually one of the more infuriating aspects of mass transit because the levels of deception involved with regard to cost is pretty ridiculous (and in some cases is so entrenched that people don't even realize they're participating in such deception).
I know Europeans have trouble grasping how large the US is but you must have as much trouble with grasping how small Europe can be...
Don't be silly, all the world is precisely equivalent to whatever suburban part of Cali gbaji resides in.
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#38 Nov 15 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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I think driving east to west in California can take longer than driving north-east to south-west in the Netherlands.
#39 Nov 15 2013 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Belkira wrote:
It seems to be cheaper than driving or flying in Europe....


Only because in Europe they massively tax cars and gasoline and massively subsidize their train systems. So while the ticket cost right in front of you to go from point A to point B is less expensive, it's artificially made so. This is actually one of the more infuriating aspects of mass transit because the levels of deception involved with regard to cost is pretty ridiculous (and in some cases is so entrenched that people don't even realize they're participating in such deception).
I know Europeans have trouble grasping how large the US is but you must have as much trouble with grasping how small Europe can be, public transport (and cycling in the Netherlands) are promoted because there's just no room for all the cars and being squeezed in a train for an hour to get to work may very well be preferable over being stuck in your car for 3 hours in a traffic jam.

It's also a great way for students to move around as they get free public transport during either the week or the weekend and few students can afford to own a car, if only because getting a driver's license can easily run you €2000 ($2700ish) and if you live in a large city, as many students do, just parking your car can cost you hundreds of euros a year (cities built before cars and all that).

That said if you're traveling in a group cars are almost always cheaper anyway, even if you keep in mind the parking costs and €1.80 per liter of gas. Although I think the railway company has started some actions where everyone past the first person gets their ticket for a fraction of the price if you travel in groups.


The parking problem is no different at some of the larger college campuses at the US. Students are charged $600/year to park at UGA, for example. However, the city bus is free for them, and some of the large apartment complexes have shuttle buses to and from campus.
#40 Nov 15 2013 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
The parking problem is no different at some of the larger college campuses at the US. Students are charged $600/year to park at UGA, for example. However, the city bus is free for them, and some of the large apartment complexes have shuttle buses to and from campus.
Something like that for us too. 12,000 employees and 6,000 parking spots or what not. The pretty much pay people to take the bus or bike. But for whatever reason people here don't seem to be as opposed to those alternative forms as else where, even outside of our hospital where they subsidize things. 45% of downtown commutes are via mass transit, and something like 6% via bicycle.

You'd think these people were allergic to cars or something. Smiley: rolleyes
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#41 Nov 15 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Catwho wrote:
The parking problem is no different at some of the larger college campuses at the US. Students are charged $600/year to park at UGA, for example. However, the city bus is free for them, and some of the large apartment complexes have shuttle buses to and from campus.
Something like that for us too. 12,000 employees and 6,000 parking spots or what not. The pretty much pay people to take the bus or bike. But for whatever reason people here don't seem to be as opposed to those alternative forms as else where, even outside of our hospital where they subsidize things. 45% of downtown commutes are via mass transit, and something like 6% via bicycle.

You'd think these people were allergic to cars or something. Smiley: rolleyes
59% of commutes in Amsterdam are by bicycle, it's about 30% nationwide. You guys have a long way to go.


Edited, Nov 15th 2013 5:54pm by Aethien
#42 Nov 15 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
You guys have a long way to go.
Yeah that's the problem in a nutshell, we can't all live in a country the size of a postage stamp. Smiley: oyvey

Our mass transit numbers are higher. Smiley: cool

Edited, Nov 15th 2013 8:49am by someproteinguy
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#43 Nov 15 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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If anything is artificial-- its how Americans are all expected to buy cars, and keep buying cars. Outside of large urban areas, public transit is hardly an option. If you want to get anywhere, you must have a car. If you aren't paying car payments, insurance and consuming plenty of gasoline, why, you're just plain doinitwrong.

Sure, you can deviate from this-- and become a subject of ridicule-- an inconvenience and obstacle for everyone else who are just trying to drive their cars. "Shame on that guy for riding a bicycle in his incredibly narrow bicycle lane(provided there is one at all), making all of us swerve around him nervously! No one will hire him, and he will never get laid. Riding a bicycle ::scoff:: What the **** is wrong with him?"

There is nowhere you can go that isn't saturated with traffic. You'd think it was an indication of a healthy economy, what with everyone riding around in their own personal money-sink. Many of these people are living beyond their means owning and maintaining a car, and it is an enormous burden on them-- but they have no choice.

Oh, if only there was some other way people could get around-- no. Perish the thought. "Public transit is for Europeans!" they'll tell you. "Vote for me and I promise to make gasoline less expensive, and you more dependent on it than ever!"
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#44 Nov 15 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
You guys have a long way to go.
Yeah that's the problem in a nutshell, we can't all live in a country the size of a postage stamp. Smiley: oyvey

Our mass transit numbers are higher. Smiley: cool
It's not so much the size but more that navigating Amsterdam, Utrecht or any other decent sized city in the Netherlands by car is a nightmare.
#45 Nov 15 2013 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Vehicle ownership is not the status symbol that it once was, but you're still dependent on a one if you're not in a major metropolis.

A local news story this morning though, told me that the new end-of-the-line stop on our commuter train saw 50% more business than was predicted. That was good to hear - next stop on the line will be in my neck of the woods. Smiley: smile

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#46 Nov 15 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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Kuwoobie wrote:
Sure, you can deviate from this-- and become a subject of ridicule-- an inconvenience and obstacle for everyone else who are just trying to drive their cars.

Yeah, dumbshits who think their bikes qualify as cars yet refuse to obey basic traffic rules, weave in and out of traffic, ignore stop signs and apparently ride with blinders on are a bit of an inconvenience and obstacle. And, of course, if I hit one (accidentally, of course) then I'm going to be the one paying the penalty for running some fuckstick over and the consequences are far more severe than just wanging someone's fender.

"Oh, but they're not ALL like that..." Whatever. Enough are to make it a nuisance to have to monitor every cyclist to determine if they're in the "minority" of retards. You'd think these people would have a greater sense of self preservation but that seems to have been pushed out by their sense of entitlement.

Edited, Nov 15th 2013 11:11am by Jophiel
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#47 Nov 15 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
How dare cyclists drive on MY road! They're so entitled!
#48 Nov 15 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, dumbshits who think their bikes qualify as cars yet refuse to obey basic traffic rules, weave in and out of traffic, ignore stop signs and apparently ride with blinders on are a bit of an inconvenience and obstacle. And, of course, if I hit one (accidentally, of course) then I'm going to be the one paying the penalty for running some fuckstick over and the consequences are far more severe than just wanging someone's fender.
As someone who cycled to work for years, I hate those cyclists. I stayed in my lane, obeyed signs, signaled turns, etc. You're a slow-moving vehicle on the road, act like one.

License plates for bicycles I tell ya, lets track the menace and bury them in a pile of tickets.
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#49 Nov 15 2013 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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Trouble is, you are an obstacle and annoyance regardless of how carefully you operate the bicycle on the road. It just isn't an option. Meanwhile, most other countries don't seem to have as much trouble. Could it be there are ways for bicycles to travel that don't share a road dominated by motored vehicles?
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#50 Nov 15 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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I'm more content sharing my road with a bicycle than with a great big truck - specially one hauling logs.

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#51 Nov 15 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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We have our share of bikeways, but they require a reasonable amount of pre-planning and real estate.
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