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#27 Dec 11 2014 at 9:28 PM Rating: Default
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Brennan admits torturing people wasn't cool and basically it was just some local, young hotheads that didn't know what they were doing.

Hilarious, or would have been were it not for the situation.
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#28 Dec 11 2014 at 10:29 PM Rating: Good
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Shame he couldn't actually bring himself to mention the word 'torture'.
I guess anyone in position of responsibility taking ownership of this is not going to happen then....
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#29 Dec 12 2014 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
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Good guess, Weekly World News Version of Nostradamus.
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#30 Dec 14 2014 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
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**** is on a roll lately. Apparently, rectal feeding was for done medical reasons.

I love how politicians say stuff like that with a completely straight face.

Lol **** Cheney is asterisked; I can't blame the filter. He does live up to his name.

Edited, Dec 14th 2014 11:00am by angrymnk

Edited, Dec 14th 2014 11:02am by angrymnk
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#31 Dec 14 2014 at 1:14 PM Rating: Default
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Mmmm.. this is good. On CBS McCain said he told Hayden and Cheney that what they are doing is torture and it is not cool. He also advised them to fess up and move on.

Oh yeah, ex-cia chief cries "this is betrayal!".

He actually whined that:

"leaders at the agency are going to wonder whether the authorities that they receive from the president will last longer than one election phase."

Can you imagine? They are asking him to think before he mindlessly obeys an order from the president!!!!!1

I am enjoying this.

Edited, Dec 14th 2014 2:17pm by angrymnk
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#32 Dec 15 2014 at 2:21 AM Rating: Default
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Having been on the receiving end of indirect rocket launches, I'm not against all forms of torture. I do think there is a humane element that has to be involved, but to think that the hired muscle who participated in an attack will just spill what they know if you ask nicely is a fantasy. I wouldn't go as far as some of the stuff that I heard from the reports, but I'm sure that people are only focusing on the most extreme types of torture. In my opinion, confinement in solidarity is torture.
#33 Dec 15 2014 at 7:24 AM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
Having been on the receiving end of indirect rocket launches, I'm not against all forms of torture. I do think there is a humane element that has to be involved, but to think that the hired muscle who participated in an attack will just spill what they know if you ask nicely is a fantasy. I wouldn't go as far as some of the stuff that I heard from the reports, but I'm sure that people are only focusing on the most extreme types of torture. In my opinion, confinement in solidarity is torture.


:) Really?

Um.. you do realize that we are not creating new words here. Torture happens to have an established definition already. I get that you are trying to massage it a little bit so that you obfuscate its meaning and make it seem more benign ( by your definition prisons are torture ).

Torture definition.

I also do get why you would want to do this. You feel guilty and you desperately want to defend your worldview. It is cute. It is like watching a child see the real world for the first time and holding on to its beliefs for as long as it can. Eventually, reality will win, but puppies go to heaven/Santa is real will stay with it for a while.

I am glad to see you are on denial stage though; it shows some progress.
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#34 Dec 15 2014 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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It is telling how the language is cherry picked in the Democrat written synopsis of the report. Like, for example, that enhanced interrogation can't be shown to have prevented a single terrorist attack, while conveniently forgetting that it very directly lead to what is arguably the most hyped foreign policy act by the Obama administration (OBL killing).


It didn't, not close in any way. In no way an open question. Torture doesn't work. It didn't work when we debated it years ago, it doesn't work now, it didn't work during the Spanish inquisition.

it has always been accepted that this way of questioning men gives no useful information, the man will way anything that comes to their mind that they think the questioner wants to know.

-Napolean Bonaparte

That guy gets it.

I don't give a fuck about enemy combatants. Torture them for fun, if you like, that's fine with me. I do have a problem with degrading the quality of the intel database with lies tortured people made up. That's what "enhanced interrogation" gets you.

There is no evidence there was *any* benefit to this. None. Zero. That's the problem, not shock value "that's so terrible" whining.
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#35 Dec 15 2014 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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angrymnk wrote:
On CBS McCain said
Something to try to remain politically relevant.
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#36 Dec 15 2014 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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My fav from the Cheneybot Meet the Press interview:

Quote:
I'm more concerned with bad guys who got out and released than I am with a few that, in fact, were innocent.
When asked about the 25% that were innocent his reply:

Quote:
Where do you draw the line?


Apparently the line is drawn at somewhere greater than 25%. What's a few innocents when it's torture-time.

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#37 Dec 15 2014 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
It's "enhanced interrogation"!

Granted, it's enhanced with torture but as polite turn of phrase can work wonders for being able to look at yourself in the mirror after you defend it.


It's not a polite turn of phrase. The interrogation techniques used do not meet the legal definition of torture. It's why the report itself using a phrase like "techniques commonly referred to as torture" to get around this, while still making sure to use the torture trigger word. Calling it torture over and over so that you can continue to refer to it as torture because it's commonly being referred to as torture is a pretty dishonest way of going about this. It's certainly not terribly useful for actually assessing the actions and outcomes in question. It's great at appealing to people's emotions though.
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#38 Dec 15 2014 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Case in point:

Smasharoo wrote:
It is telling how the language is cherry picked in the Democrat written synopsis of the report. Like, for example, that enhanced interrogation can't be shown to have prevented a single terrorist attack, while conveniently forgetting that it very directly lead to what is arguably the most hyped foreign policy act by the Obama administration (OBL killing).

It didn't, not close in any way. In no way an open question. Torture doesn't work.


It's not torture. Ergo, statements like "torture doesn't work" are meaningless.

Quote:
It didn't work when we debated it years ago, it doesn't work now, it didn't work during the Spanish inquisition.


And years ago, I responded the same way. You've chosen word association over rationality.


Quote:
There is no evidence there was *any* benefit to this. None. Zero. That's the problem, not shock value "that's so terrible" whining.


Except for all the people saying "we got lots of useful information from this". I suppose if you always discount anyone who says something that counters your position you can always be right. Useless, but there you have it.
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#39 Dec 15 2014 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's not a polite turn of phrase.

No, it really is. I understand your investment in arguing otherwise though since you support it.
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#40 Dec 15 2014 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not torture. Ergo, statements like "torture doesn't work" are meaningless.

That's fascinating. By what definition? Or do you just shout and cover your ears when you hear that word?


Except for all the people saying "we got lots of useful information from this"

Trivial to establish then. Please establish it. Who said this and based on what data?




Edited, Dec 15th 2014 2:24pm by Smasharoo
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#41 Dec 15 2014 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I liked Brennan's non-statement of "We gained valuable information from guys we tortured. Please refrain from noticing that I never said it was as a result, just that there's some Venn diagram overlap between 'guys we tortured' and 'guys we got info from'..."
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#42 Dec 15 2014 at 3:00 PM Rating: Default
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angrymnk wrote:
:) Really?

Um.. you do realize that we are not creating new words here. Torture happens to have an established definition already. I get that you are trying to massage it a little bit so that you obfuscate its meaning and make it seem more benign ( by your definition prisons are torture ).


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture wrote:

:the act of causing severe physical pain as a form of punishment or as a way to force someone to do or say something

:something that causes mental or physical suffering : a very painful or unpleasant experience


1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony
b: something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure


Why don't you actually look up the word before saying that I'm changing the definition? There are entire movements against the effectiveness of prisons. Regardless of where you draw the "torture" line, we tend to think prison is acceptable due to the actions and crime that the prisoners have committed. That's literally the same logic being used against terrorists. The only difference here is the difference of opinion of what constitutes as an inhumane torture.

How am I trying to make obfuscate anything or make it benign when I mentioned that there is an array of torture techniques, some more inhumane than others? You're just randomly throwing words around.

angrymnk wrote:
I also do get why you would want to do this. You feel guilty and you desperately want to defend your worldview. It is cute. It is like watching a child see the real world for the first time and holding on to its beliefs for as long as it can. Eventually, reality will win, but puppies go to heaven/Santa is real will stay with it for a while.

I am glad to see you are on denial stage though; it shows some progress.
Guilty of what? I never done anything. I'm not in the CIA. Do you even understand the discussion?

Edited, Dec 15th 2014 11:03pm by Almalieque
#43 Dec 15 2014 at 3:57 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
:) Really?

Um.. you do realize that we are not creating new words here. Torture happens to have an established definition already. I get that you are trying to massage it a little bit so that you obfuscate its meaning and make it seem more benign ( by your definition prisons are torture ).


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture wrote:

:the act of causing severe physical pain as a form of punishment or as a way to force someone to do or say something

:something that causes mental or physical suffering : a very painful or unpleasant experience


1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony
b: something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure


Why don't you actually look up the word before saying that I'm changing the definition? There are entire movements against the effectiveness of prisons. Regardless of where you draw the "torture" line, we tend to think prison is acceptable due to the actions and crime that the prisoners have committed. That's literally the same logic being used against terrorists. The only difference here is the difference of opinion of what constitutes as an inhumane torture.

How am I trying to make obfuscate anything or make it benign when I mentioned that there is an array of torture techniques, some more inhumane than others? You're just randomly throwing words around.

angrymnk wrote:
I also do get why you would want to do this. You feel guilty and you desperately want to defend your worldview. It is cute. It is like watching a child see the real world for the first time and holding on to its beliefs for as long as it can. Eventually, reality will win, but puppies go to heaven/Santa is real will stay with it for a while.

I am glad to see you are on denial stage though; it shows some progress.
Guilty of what? I never done anything. I'm not in the CIA. Do you even understand the discussion?

Edited, Dec 15th 2014 11:03pm by Almalieque


Cute. so where do YOU draw the line? Rectal feeding?
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#44 Dec 15 2014 at 4:40 PM Rating: Default
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angrymnk wrote:

Cute. so where do YOU draw the line? Rectal feeding?
I can't draw a line without knowing all of the techniques. Unlike you, I'm not going to pretend to know all of the details. I would consider rectal feeding inhumane and beyond the line.
#45 Dec 15 2014 at 5:14 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
angrymnk wrote:

Cute. so where do YOU draw the line? Rectal feeding?
I can't draw a line without knowing all of the techniques. Unlike you, I'm not going to pretend to know all of the details. I would consider rectal feeding inhumane and beyond the line.


Gewd, gewd, so rectal feeding is beyond the line. I am glad we are in sync.

Do you think the novel idea of not using that particular technique for extracting data is worth pursuing? If so, can we expand it some of the other less than savory "techniques"?
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#46 Dec 15 2014 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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#47 Dec 15 2014 at 7:58 PM Rating: Default
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angrymnk wrote:
Gewd, gewd, so rectal feeding is beyond the line. I am glad we are in sync.

Do you think the novel idea of not using that particular technique for extracting data is worth pursuing? If so, can we expand it some of the other less than savory "techniques"?


At this point, I would normally ignore you as you're obviously ignorant on the matter and only trying to gain acceptance from this board. So, cut the crap. What's your point? I've already said that there are some techniques that are inhumane and others that are reasonable. Furthermore, I've said that since I don't know all of the techniques, I'm unable to draw a line.

Edited, Dec 16th 2014 4:00am by Almalieque
#48 Dec 15 2014 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
Gewd, gewd, so rectal feeding is beyond the line. I am glad we are in sync.

Do you think the novel idea of not using that particular technique for extracting data is worth pursuing? If so, can we expand it some of the other less than savory "techniques"?


At this point, I would normally ignore you as you're obviously ignorant on the matter and only trying to gain acceptance from this board. So, cut the crap. What's your point? I've already said that there are some techniques that are inhumane and others that are reasonable. Furthermore, I've said that since I don't know all of the techniques, I'm unable to draw a line.

Edited, Dec 16th 2014 4:00am by Almalieque


Acceptance? First off, I come to this board because I am unable to tell people what I think at work and my fiance will not argue with me no matter how many fights I pick at home. So yeah, while your responses do satisfy a need of some sort, you did not profile me correctly.

Btw, you are able to draw the line. Do you know how I know? Because you said so already!!!1 ( you said, rectal feeding is not cool ).

So yeah, where was I?
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#49 Dec 15 2014 at 8:46 PM Rating: Default
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angrymnk wrote:
Btw, you are able to draw the line. Do you know how I know? Because you said so already!!!1 ( you said, rectal feeding is not cool ).

So yeah, where was I?
Given that my position was that there are some forms of torture that are inhumane, that acknowledgement doesn't "draw a line". My position states that a line already exists, but I just don't know where. Acknowledging that rectal feeding is "not cool" doesn't draw a line, it supports my claim that a line already exists and that particular technique is beyond it. That is exactly what I said from the start. Your statement would have been more appropriate if I had claimed that all forms of torture were acceptable. So, I ask again, what is your point?
#50 Dec 15 2014 at 8:51 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
Btw, you are able to draw the line. Do you know how I know? Because you said so already!!!1 ( you said, rectal feeding is not cool ).

So yeah, where was I?
Given that my position was that there are some forms of torture that are inhumane, that acknowledgement doesn't "draw a line". My position states that a line already exists, but I just don't know where. Acknowledging that rectal feeding is "not cool" doesn't draw a line, it supports my claim that a line already exists and that particular technique is beyond it. That is exactly what I said from the start. Your statement would have been more appropriate if I had claimed that all forms of torture were acceptable. So, I ask again, what is your point?


You would think that after reading my previous post my point would be obvious, but I guess not.

So there is a line, not your line, but a line nonetheless. Is it fair to say it is the line created by society?
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#51 Dec 15 2014 at 9:11 PM Rating: Default
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angrymnk wrote:

You would think that after reading my previous post my point would be obvious, but I guess not.
No, because you're just rambling nonsense as if you're knowledgeable on the subject. I have no idea on what you are trying to achieve by only asking me to prove what I already said.

angrymnk wrote:

So there is a line, not your line, but a line nonetheless.
How can it be or not be "my line" if I never said what the line was?

angrymnk wrote:
Is it fair to say it is the line created by society?

There is no unification on the definition of the line, hence the the point of this conversation. This isn't Physics, so it's purely opinionated. Therefore, what constitutes as acceptable forms of torture can and will vary.
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