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#4027 Aug 16 2017 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Our Major and city council decided to just order the removal of 4 statues honoring the Civil War without any notice before hand. I'm glad they been taken out of the city, but darn I will miss the Lee and Jackson statue, as I walk around the Dell. WhatI won't miss is the Sons of Confederates laying a wreath at it's base every year.
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#4028 Aug 16 2017 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Screenshot
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#4029 Aug 16 2017 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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And then there was this assbutt, who for months has been going around telling women to kill ourselves because we're worthless, useless, stupid trash. Big, big, internet tough guy...until there's a warrant out for his arrest, at which point he all but cries for his mommy.

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#4030 Aug 16 2017 at 6:13 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Probably not, but I might add people that ask nonsense questions along the way. Just for practice.

But people who point out problems in your reasoning are safe right?
lolgaxe wrote:
So my range would be branches that would be considered incestuous with each other with the central target. If, and that's a huge if, anyone would be part of the small circle of people that would and could retaliate they would be there.

The central target is irrelevant. I'm assuming here that everyone operates under a similar mentality to you as far as revenge is concerned. The bounds of what is considered family vary from person to person, but let's say that first cousins are considered family.

So Joe harms your family. You kill Joe, his wife, and his daughter per your revenge, we'll get to whether you kill his first cousins in a bit. Joe considers his first cousins family, and they consider him likewise. His first cousins operate under a similar revenge mentality to you, and so they will attempt to kill you and your family. Knowing this you must either preemptively kill them or will have to do so in self defense regardless of whether they were part of your original murder plot. But Joe's first cousins have first cousins. These are Joe's second cousins don't consider Joe family, and likewise for Joe, but they do consider their first cousins to be family who consider Joe to be family. Since you have killed their first cousin, they will retaliate against you under a similar revenge mentality and you will be forced to preemptively kill them or do so in self defense. But these second cousins also have first cousins (Joe's third cousins), who have a similar revenge mentality. And so on and so on.

You can throw grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles, step-relations, in-laws, or even life long friends into the mix of what is considered family. The point is that if the family members of a family member are not a closed loop, the chain of revenge explodes to include an absurdly large number of people, potentially literally everyone.
lolgaxe wrote:
that's not to say it's impossible someone will come looking, but we're in a scorched Earth scenario, meaning I've got nothing to lose.

Except any of your remaining family. Which is why I asked you the frustratingly logically honest question of whether you would kill your daughter to kill the person who killed your wife, because assuming people think like you do, you would at some point probably have to make this choice.
lolgaxe wrote:
Why wouldn't I start at the end game?

You could, but it makes no difference to the chaining problem mentioned earlier. It also has a separate problem where someone with the same mentality beats you to the bunch. Someone could consider your actions (either intentional or unintentional) harm to their family and whether they intend to outright cut down your family tree or simply escalate, if they merely consider that you would escalate as well then the logical thing for them to do is to preempt you at end game. Since you may not have realized you harmed them you have no reason to be on the defensive. And the vast majority of people cannot stop prevent themselves or their family from being randomly murdered. You mentioned earlier that people may not know about your intentions and actions, yes, but that is a symmetrical problem for you. As for caring, entertaining the idea, and temperament you are correct, but we're assuming people have a similar revenge mentality as you and therefore they have all of these covered. As far as the means, everyone has access to this. Anyone can very easily kill any other random person, and there is very little that can be done to physically stop this. Most people don't kill because they lack the desire (including the cost of getting caught/punished), not because they can't.

Edited, Aug 16th 2017 7:20pm by Allegory
#4031 Aug 16 2017 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Maybe because those people owned slaves, and eventually the aggression will be directed against anyone who participated in the practice?


I mean, that's a conversation worth having on its own merits. Think about the pedestals we put people on, and how we insist that our heroes are always and only heroes.

How much more interesting it would be to study these remarkable individuals as complete people, with virtues and flaws and odd quirks and redeeming qualities. Yes, Washington owned slaves; Jefferson not only owned slaves but took sexual advantage of several. We know that, but we never SAY it, and it's worth talking about. I don't think it's a matter of tearing down heroes, but of humanizing people who actually lived and breathed and made decisions that echo down the long centuries.
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#4032 Aug 16 2017 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Bijou wrote:
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Not 42. Disappointed.
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BLOW THEM away...
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#4033 Aug 16 2017 at 9:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bannon accidentally goes on record saying that the Alt-Right are a bunch of losers:
American Prospect wrote:
I asked Bannon about the connection between his program of economic nationalism and the ugly white nationalism epitomized by the racist violence in Charlottesville and Trump’s reluctance to condemn it. Bannon, after all, was the architect of the strategy of using Breitbart to heat up white nationalism and then rely on the radical right as Trump’s base.

He dismissed the far right as irrelevant and sidestepped his own role in cultivating it: “Ethno-nationalism—it's losers. It's a fringe element. I think the media plays it up too much, and we gotta help crush it, you know, uh, help crush it more.”

“These guys are a collection of clowns,” he added.
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#4034 Aug 16 2017 at 9:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Maybe because those people owned slaves, and eventually the aggression will be directed against anyone who participated in the practice?


I mean, that's a conversation worth having on its own merits. Think about the pedestals we put people on, and how we insist that our heroes are always and only heroes.

How much more interesting it would be to study these remarkable individuals as complete people, with virtues and flaws and odd quirks and redeeming qualities. Yes, Washington owned slaves; Jefferson not only owned slaves but took sexual advantage of several. We know that, but we never SAY it, and it's worth talking about. I don't think it's a matter of tearing down heroes, but of humanizing people who actually lived and breathed and made decisions that echo down the long centuries.


Great points.

I think context is one of the harder things to keep in mind. A simple example: prior to the publishing of Black Beauty there was minimal media attention given to animals having rights/feelings/thoughts. This doesn't mean every farmer in the dark ages abused their sheep, but it may also mean the standard of care that was in the "acceptable range" may well have been akin to deplorable or inhumane today. This makes it very hard to see historical figures as heroes through a modern lens if we can't remind ourselves of the context around their lives.

Then take a historical figure like Robert E. Lee, how many people view him as a hero because Luke and Bo Duke told them so when they were 8 years old and have never actually really looked into him? This is not saying he isn't a hero in the context of his time & place, but heroes don't always resonate into the future. Dukes of Hazzard presented an aw-shucks Southern Pride with no sense of menace to it including a confederate flag as a stylish, harmless badge. If that was all anyone ever did with a confederate flag then it probably wouldn't be seen as a problem by anyone today (as we ignore history for the convenience of modern thinking). But that is not the way some people are using it and not the rhetoric of the days it was created for.

If your symbol is used to brand hate, you've lost that symbol (look how fast the Detroit Red Wings voiced nonsupport of their logo being at that rally). The former good luck symbol known as the swastika is a great example of this. Any kid that watched the Dukes and believed in those characters would not expect them to run people over at a rally in the General Lee --they'd repaint the car with the state flag or something (though Georgia's new flag still connects to the confederate history) and help solve the argument, being the good-guy good ol' boys.

The American Civil war is a complicated mess of state rights and political ploys and there is a lot to do with the economic impact of slavery rather than just grand notions of equality if one digs into the records of the time. I would hope the one takeway from it would be that Americans don't need to ever kill Americans again over political views. Maybe that is naive (Ohio State...), but I prefer hopeful.

Then you have recent events where some people are dressing **** and a person gets killed. Freedom of speech and thought are great, but security of person (freedom from hate) of a group trumps an individual's right to say or do what they want. If someone threatens America we stand together as Americans --even if that threat is an American, right? (asking as a Canadian... we've got our own issues. One of them is that it freaks us out when the USA is chaotic... which the last nearly year has been)

I'd go further to say that the price was paid in WWII that the **** card is not one you get to play, period. Certainly not one you can play and have any credibility as a rationale thinker.
#4035 Aug 16 2017 at 10:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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snailish wrote:
I would hope the one takeway from it would be that Americans don't need to ever kill Americans again over political views. Maybe that is naive (Ohio State...), but I prefer hopeful.


This isn't the first time an American has popped off and killed a fellow American over politics. I have a feeling it won't be the last. Still, it's a nice thought that we could someday grow past that particular knee jerk.
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#4036 Aug 17 2017 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
But people who point out problems in your reasoning are safe right?
That depends on whether the problems they're pointing out are actual problems or hypothetical.
Allegory wrote:
I'm assuming here that everyone operates under a similar mentality to you as far as revenge is concerned.
Why assume? They don't.
Allegory wrote:
The point is that if the family members of a family member are not a closed loop, the chain of revenge explodes to include an absurdly large number of people, potentially literally everyone.
It wouldn't explode to include potentially-literally everyone because history has literally-literally already shown it wouldn't happen by virtue that humans still exist.
Allegory wrote:
Except any of your remaining family.
I don't do scorched Earth if there is any remaining family.
Allegory wrote:
Since you may not have realized you harmed them you have no reason to be on the defensive.
Why exactly would there be no reason to be defensive? The likelihood of taking out all targets in one go is low, which means it'd have to be over the course of days (weeks, months, etc) so even if the chances of a counter-retaliation is astronomically low there's no reason not to be defensive to avoid capture by the authorities before completion. Yes, collateral fatalities are likely, but I'm going to "assume" you understand that morality, ethics, and "rules of war" aren't exactly concerns here.
Allegory wrote:
but we're assuming people have a similar revenge mentality as you
No, "we" are not.

I don't enjoy hypotheticals.
snailish wrote:
I think context is one of the harder things to keep in mind.
There's a monument to Benedict Arnold in Saratoga for his accomplishments prior to, you know, his Benedict Arnolding. It doesn't mention him or look like him or anything. It's just a boot representing a foot injury he sustained during the Battle of Saratoga and a plaque with a vague inscription. The South lost, so if they really want to honor the good their traitors did then they can change the monuments to something more abstract. Or just move them to museums.

These monuments are like participation ribbons. "You're a loser, don't feel bad about it!" Why not just replace the monuments with ice cream stands and anyone that can stand without help and belch out "The South shall rise again!" without drooling on themselves gets a free scoop of vanilla?
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#4037 Aug 17 2017 at 8:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd probably be a little more sympathetic to saving the monuments if they'd actually been put up in the wake of the Civil War. The fact that most of them were added during the Jim Crow and Civil Rights eras (1910s-1920s and 1960s) makes me suspect they're less about heritage and more about racism than their defenders want to admit.
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#4038 Aug 17 2017 at 8:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Screenshot
.
Well yeah, like I said who doesn't like building things just to burn them down? That's why God invented Simcity. Smiley: wink

Really though the limit of my argument is that Trump misread his base, they were more bothered by the whole thing than he was, and I'd expect him to lose a couple more points in the polls because of his handling of the mess. The whole mass-resignations on the various business/economic councils is pretty telling too. Hinting at cracks finally starting to form. I think we look back at this in a few years as his first serious misstep that stuck. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong, was just my impression.

Edited, Aug 17th 2017 8:08am by someproteinguy
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#4039 Aug 17 2017 at 8:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Both MSNBC and FOX News said that they reached out to every Republican senator and a number of prominent House members and not a single one agreed to come on and defend Trump or his remarks on the issue.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#4041 Aug 17 2017 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
How much more interesting it would be to study these remarkable individuals as complete people, with virtues and flaws and odd quirks and redeeming qualities. Yes, Washington owned slaves; Jefferson not only owned slaves but took sexual advantage of several. We know that, but we never SAY it, and it's worth talking about. I don't think it's a matter of tearing down heroes, but of humanizing people who actually lived and breathed and made decisions that echo down the long centuries.
Yeah I wish we empathized the human element much more in these kinds of instances. There's often places where this kind of thing is done, but usually not front and center. I admittedly don't know much about these historical figures. Certainly have heard stories, have visited Mt. Vernon, etc. but I probably could tell you very little about their personal lives, actual beliefs, etc. The degree to which a random Southern general was fighting for slavery, or his livelihood, or simply defending his home? Yeah, I don't know that. Makes it hard to know what to think when there are issues like this. As the years pass and we become even farther removed from the events that happened it's too easy to loose track of who people were, or their justifications for their actions, or what their thoughts on current events might be.

Edited, Aug 17th 2017 9:28am by someproteinguy
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#4042 Aug 17 2017 at 9:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
IIRC that quote was from the Neo-**** group that had their website shut down by Go Daddy and then later by Google when they tried to rehost.
They're back. Amusingly with a Russian domain. DS was always worth a chuckle.
Daimler owning Jeep levels of irony, too awesome. Smiley: lol
and now they've lost their russian domain. Guess we see if they're going to try and find a 3rd world country that has bigger problems than a random hate group from America have a website, or if they just say **** it and retreat to an .onion address until things die down. Smiley: rolleyes
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#4043 Aug 17 2017 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Both MSNBC and FOX News said that they reached out to every Republican senator and a number of prominent House members and not a single one agreed to come on and defend or his remarks on the issue.
Well of course Fox News and their liberal bias are going to fake news that.

Edited, Aug 17th 2017 11:54am by lolgaxe
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#4044 Aug 17 2017 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Both MSNBC and FOX News said that they reached out to every Republican senator and a number of prominent House members and not a single one agreed to come on and defend Trump or his remarks on the issue.
Yeah, can't imagine anyone really wants to go on record right now. Things are calming down a bit, but it'd still be a difficult time for a Republican to make a statement that wouldn't have potentially damaging consequences in a few months once the mid-terms kick into high gear. Best to keep your mouth shut until you see where the cards fall, and how strongly Trump emerges from this.

Edited, Aug 17th 2017 9:30am by someproteinguy
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#4045 Aug 17 2017 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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Speaking of monuments:

I've got nothing.

Edited, Aug 17th 2017 12:32pm by lolgaxe
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#4046 Aug 18 2017 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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45's Twitter wrote:
The United States condemns the terror attack in Barcelona, Spain, and will do whatever is necessary to help. Be tough & strong, we love you!
Well, no doubt there was plenty of violence and blame on both sides, right?
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#4047 Aug 18 2017 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
45's Twitter wrote:
The United States condemns the terror attack in Barcelona, Spain, and will do whatever is necessary to help. Be tough & strong, we love you!
Well, no doubt there was plenty of violence and blame on both sides, right?
Give him a few days to get to get all the facts straight and he'll get back to you.
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#4048 Aug 18 2017 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
45's Twitter wrote:
The United States condemns the terror attack in Barcelona, Spain, and will do whatever is necessary to help. Be tough & strong, we love you!
Well, no doubt there was plenty of violence and blame on both sides, right?
Absolutely. It's obvious that people shouldn't have been out living and enjoying life. Clearly, these people were antagonizing terrorists, who were obviously provoked and as a result, are only partially responsible.
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#4049 Aug 18 2017 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's all mother earth's fault. All this climate change B.S. she keeps doing; forcing wars and refugees and what not. Time she faced some consequences for her role in all this.

#LOCKHERUP
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#4050 Aug 18 2017 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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OK, so the easiest kill order is lolgaxe->his family, that much is clear. Does anyone know if we get different/better loot if we do it the other way around? Or is killing the family first just a noob trap?
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#4051 Aug 18 2017 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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NYT is reporting that Trump plans to fire Bannon. Can't a Nazi sympathizer get any respect these days?
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