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#1 Jun 23 2015 at 10:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Walmart, Sears, Amazon, Google and eBay all say that they're removing any Confederate flag merchandise from their stores

Governor Deal of Georgia says that he's going to have the license plate redesigned to put the flag in a more diminished role.

Governor Haslam of Tennessee says he'd want to see his state's Confederate plate retired. Governor McCrory of N. Carolina says the same and he will ask the state legislature to pass a bill doing so. Governor McAuliffe of Virginia is using last week's Supreme Court ruling as precedent to redesign his state's Confederate plates and eliminate the flag.

Governor Hayley of S. Carolina of course said that she believes the flag should come down from the state capital complex.

The House Speaker of the Mississippi state legislature says that they should change their flag.

So... that escalated quickly.
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#2 Jun 23 2015 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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Edited, Jun 24th 2015 12:29am by trickybeck
#3 Jun 23 2015 at 11:28 PM Rating: Good
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That's just about literally "the least they could do."

No billion-dollar revenues with lobbyists backing the tacky replica flag industry.

But then, as people have pointed out, if 20 dead 6-year-olds can't bring gun reform, nothing will.
#4 Jun 24 2015 at 6:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Walmart, Sears, Amazon, Google and eBay all say that they're removing any Confederate flag merchandise from their stores



... I take it they didn't sell that well to begin with.. that said, I don't like how PC hysteria affects what is available for sale.
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#5 Jun 24 2015 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Like it or not, it's how it's always been. The more mainstream the store, the more sensitive they are to customer perceptions and the more likely to pull things from shelves.

I wonder where all that stuff goes? Do they send it overseas to be sold? Give it to Goodwill for a tax write-off?
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#6 Jun 24 2015 at 7:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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And it only took 150 years.
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#7 Jun 24 2015 at 7:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Amazon supposedly removed/is removing some 30,000 items so someone must have been buying that stuff. Not just flags but clothing, jewelry, bandannas (always classy) buttons, phone cases, tablecloths, towels, plates and glasses, bedroom sets, crib sets (wait, what?), tire covers, car decals, camping gear, lawn chairs and so on.

Seriously... what the hell? Scroll down to the Confederate flag and photorealistic skulls theme for your precious baby's first moments Smiley: facepalm

Screenshot



Edited, Jun 24th 2015 10:32am by Jophiel
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#8 Jun 24 2015 at 7:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Holy yikes, the comments must be glorious.
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#9 Jun 24 2015 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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#10 Jun 24 2015 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Political Wire wrote:
“On the order of Gov. Robert Bentley (R), the Confederate battle flag which stands at the foot of the confederate memorial on the state Capitol grounds was taken down this morning,” the Birmingham News reports.

“Two workers came out of the Capitol building about 8:20 a.m. and with no fanfare quickly and quietly took the flag down. They declined to answer questions.”
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#11 Jun 24 2015 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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But what's the point? My adopted daughter is a minority. She's learned about discrimination first-hand. I explained to her long ago that just because someone says the right thing does not mean they are going to do the right thing, and that it's actually better when someone says the "wrong" thing out loud because now they can be identified as a bigot. You can always learn how to deal with the devil you know.

So their little flag gets taken away. Now what? Everyone can go home and live happily ever after? We won! There's now less prejudice in the world!

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#12 Jun 24 2015 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Okay, agreed, it's not a giant stride for mankind. But, self-declared Great Leaps Forward aside, progress is seldom made in strides. It's made in baby steps.

This, to me, is an indication that enough old bigots and racists have died off that the remainder of the South is becoming increasingly uncomfortable with racist symbols.

It is not, in itself, a change of any kind. It may, however, be an indicator of an underlying groundswell of change that is long overdue.
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#13 Jun 24 2015 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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On the OTHER hand, apparently sales of Confederate flags have skyrocketed.

Oh well. As John Oliver said the other night, we need people to wear Confederate flags, pins, belt buckles and what not so that we can easily identify the worst people in the world.

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#14 Jun 24 2015 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Awesome, that means there's going to be a protest in the upcoming weeks.
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#15 Jun 24 2015 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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The "point", such as it is, is that after the shooting and the S.Carolina flag debacle, people paused and said "You know what? Flying this symbol at all is pretty fucked up." It won't magically change bigots, it won't raise the dead, it won't stop a guy who decides a week from now that all blacks must die. It does, however, mean that people decided that maybe a symbol of institutional racism and slavery isn't something we want to casually fly around or have endorsed by our governments. And maybe excuses about "tradition" which boil down to "Everyone's just gotten used to this casual symbol of racism so why should I have to change it?" aren't really good enough. I think that stands on its own as a good thing.

While it won't bring anyone back to life, it is nice to think that Roof's attempts to instigate a race war resulted in people honestly evaluating a symbol of racism and judging it as deplorable.

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 12:40pm by Jophiel
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#16 Jun 24 2015 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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I don't believe it's so much "people honestly evaluating" so much as "politicritters and mass market distributors distancing themselves from Bowlcut Roof as fast as possible." Though Sears is the weird one in that list.
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#17 Jun 24 2015 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
The "point", such as it is, is that after the shooting and the S.Carolina flag debacle, people paused and said "You know what? Flying this symbol at all is pretty fucked up." It won't magically change bigots, it won't raise the dead, it won't stop a guy who decides a week from now that all blacks must die. It does, however, mean that people decided that maybe a symbol of institutional racism and slavery isn't something we want to casually fly around or have endorsed by our governments. And maybe excuses about "tradition" which boil down to "Everyone's just gotten used to this casual symbol of racism so why should I have to change it?" aren't really good enough. I think that stands on its own as a good thing.

While it won't bring anyone back to life, it is nice to think that Roof's attempts to instigate a race war resulted in people honestly evaluating a symbol of racism and judging it as deplorable.

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 12:40pm by Jophiel
Yeah, I get that. I guess the issue I'm having is that wagon out front that all of these corporations and politicians are suddenly hopping on. It's easy to do, relatively painless, and oh the publicity!

I hate to be accused of distrusting motives here but, then again . . .

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#18 Jun 24 2015 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, before Hayley actually took a stand, nearly all the GOP presidential candidates were giving wishy-washy non-statements about it, afraid of pissing off the southern white racist vote.

I'd call the last couple days an improvement.
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#19 Jun 24 2015 at 2:55 PM Rating: Default
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We have to remember that this all started with the thought of the senator's body laying next near the flag expressed in his murder. The logical move for everyone else (states and companies) is to jump on the bandwagon while the move is more acceptable as they will only be targeted later when it's less acceptable. It's better to do it now. Although completely insincere, it's definitely a step in the right direction.
#20 Jun 24 2015 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have no idea what your first sentence says.
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#21 Jun 24 2015 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I don't believe it's so much "people honestly evaluating" so much as "politicritters and mass market distributors distancing themselves from Bowlcut Roof as fast as possible." Though Sears is the weird one in that list.


Yeah, this. I was watching some news show about the shooting, and the flag, and someone made an outraged comment about how the confederate flag (and related symbols) must go because Roof wore them. My thought was "This is South Carolina. That's like saying he wore pants".

I'm kind of ambivalent about the whole confederate battle flag thing. On the one hand, I get how people see it as a symbol of slavery, but on the other hand, I get how people see it as a symbol of independent spirit. I honestly do believe that most people who wear/fly/whatever them view it in the latter way and not the former, but that doesn't prevent it from offending those who see it differently. I guess my main problem with this is to ask just how far the idea that merely offending someone should result in nationwide outrage goes. The idea that if enough people see something as offensive (or are taught that it's offensive, so they view it that way), then it *is* offensive and should be eliminated is kind of scary.

I've already seen comments in an article basically equating the confederate flag to the Christian cross and other religious symbols. Over time, can those who want to eliminate such things also influence public opinion about their meaning sufficiently to also create such a massive outrage as well? It just smacks of a total cart before horse approach. And, as someone pointed out above, does it really change anything? The racists aren't going to stop being racists. They weren't racist because of a symbol. It just seems like such an artificial surface level approach to what is a much different type of problem.

But I'm sure lots of folks will pat themselves on the back for their great accomplishment, while licking their lips thinking of what the next target will be.
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#22 Jun 24 2015 at 4:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think most people are perfectly okay if Jed can't get his baby a Confederate Flag & Skull baby blanket but their actual main concern was the flying of the flag at the S. Carolina capital complex, on government land and other related government-related uses of the symbol that come across as endorsement.

Great if some store wants to stop selling Confederate socks but that wasn't the primary goal so asking "How far does it go?" is sort of moot. There'll always be places to get your Confederate flags, blankets, couch throws and dog collars. Nothing is being "eliminated".
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They weren't racist because of a symbol.

Perhaps not but we should be better than a society that casually accepts racist symbols just because they've been around a while and we're sadly used to seeing them.

Edited, Jun 24th 2015 5:08pm by Jophiel
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#23 Jun 24 2015 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I've already seen comments in an article basically equating the confederate flag to the Christian cross and other religious symbols. Over time, can those who want to eliminate such things also influence public opinion about their meaning sufficiently to also create such a massive outrage as well? It just smacks of a total cart before horse approach.


What is it you think "cart before horse' means, exactly? I'm fascinated. Staunchly refusing to remove a symbol of white supremacy for a century until people are murdered, and then primarily as a "hey look over here!" dodge to avoid talking about gun violence is 'the cart' in this analogy? What the **** is the horse??
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#24 Jun 24 2015 at 4:32 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
I honestly do believe that most people who wear/fly/whatever them view it in the latter way and not the former,
Yea, that simply isn't true. It's hard to accept, but you can do an objective self analysis by looking at the crowd you surround yourself with. To think so many racists chose the Confederate flag for any other reason other than the similarities in racial beliefs is absurd.

Gbaji wrote:
I guess my main problem with this is to ask just how far the idea that merely offending someone should result in nationwide outrage goes.
The outrage has always been there. This situation allowed Confederate flag supporters an out without taking too much heat from their base. Notice how some GOP members were vague and/or silent until high profiles came out in the open. Any CEO or Governor know that they will be the next target. For a party who is always fighting for company and state rights, it's quite ironic that the same people complain when they decide to make their own decisions.

Gbaji wrote:
I've already seen comments in an article basically equating the confederate flag to the Christian cross and other religious symbols.
The difference is the Bible (more specifically the New Testament) is available for all to interpret. While people may have different interpretations of particular text, it's undeniable that living the life of Christ is peace, not hatred. There's a difference between being offended by something that promotes hatred against you vs not liking a symbol because you disagree with it's explanation of the creation of existence and the way of life.
#25 Jun 24 2015 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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For that matter, I've seen "comments in articles" saying that Jade Helm is a plot to occupy Texas and herd all the people into Walmart concentration camps. Who the fuck cares about "comments in articles"? Are we supposed to debate via proxy with some random moron?

I am okay with the state governments not displaying the cross over their state capitols though so... mission accomplished, I guess.
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#26 Jun 24 2015 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I think most people are perfectly okay if Jed can't get his baby a Confederate Flag & Skull baby blanket but their actual main concern was the flying of the flag at the S. Carolina capital complex, on government land and other related government-related uses of the symbol that come across as endorsement.


It was flying over a confederate memorial, not over the capitol itself (next to it maybe, not sure). Having done a bit of research (cause I've never really cared that much about this issue), apparently there was a big kerfluffle about the flag flying on the same pole where the US and SC flags were flying, so as a compromise, the state government agreed to remove it from the flags flown "over the capitol", and to a memorial specifically set aside for remembering the sacrifices and lives lost by confederate soldiers during the civil war.

But let's just tear that down because some nutter happened to wear one (along with a pair of pants) while committing a mass shooting.

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Perhaps not but we should be better than a society that casually accepts racist symbols just because they've been around a while and we're sadly used to seeing them.


Is it a racist symbol though? I guess a symbol is what people perceive it to be, but to most people wearing/flying it, do they view it that way? Or is it that the people who don't fly it or wear it view it that way? At which point, you have to ask: What makes it a racist symbol? If enough people who aren't Jewish decide that the Star of David represents greed and conspiracy against everyone else, does it matter that Jews don't view it that way? Or do we all get so offended by this terrible symbol that we ostracize and stereotype anyone who associates with it? Cause I kinda see this as what's happened with that flag.


The perception of a symbol as a symbol of racism really ought to be based on how the people who use that symbol perceive it themselves. And what's interesting is that it's really a minority who view it as racist at all (but they do so loudly apparently). Interesting page I ran across. 30% say it is, while 70% say it's not. Does that make it "racist"? Or is it that those who think so think so very firmly, while those who don't (like myself) aren't as passionate about it?

As I said above, I'm more concerned about the methodology being used here. It's a crappy way to effect changes IMO.
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