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The Libertarian Party debate was on TV yesterdayFollow

#202 Jul 07 2016 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
It is not a defense. It is a perspective.

Not one I share. "Maybe they knew" in no way makes "Now they absolutely certainly know" any less shitty.
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He did this country as service. You. Me. Everyone.

He certainly did himself a service when he traded my security for his own.


*shrug* He already had security. He had decent money. He had a stripper wife. He wiled away days in Hawaii. He need not have traded for security, because he already had it. What does that tell you?
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#203 Jul 07 2016 at 7:30 PM Rating: Default
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angrymnk wrote:

*shrug* He already had security. He had decent money. He had a stripper wife. He wiled away days in Hawaii. He need not have traded for security, because he already had it. What does that tell you?
He wanted more.
#204 Jul 07 2016 at 7:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
What does that tell you?

That you misunderstood me. He traded my security for his own to mitigate taking any responsibility for his actions.

Don't tell me that he did this for me. I wasn't party to the decision of whether I wanted to trade knowing about some stuff (the great bulk of which related to intel programs on other nations) for giving over bundles of intel to enemy nations. I certainly wouldn't have agreed to his actions. He did what he wanted to do and sold out the nation to save his own skin.

Edited, Jul 7th 2016 8:39pm by Jophiel
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#205 Jul 07 2016 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
What does that tell you?

That you misunderstood me. He traded my security for his own to mitigate taking any responsibility for his actions.

Don't tell me that he did this for me. I wasn't party to the decision of whether I wanted to trade knowing about some stuff (the great bulk of which related to intel programs on other nations) for giving over bundles of intel to enemy nations. I certainly wouldn't have agreed to his actions. He did what he wanted to do and sold out the nation to save his own skin.

Edited, Jul 7th 2016 8:39pm by Jophiel


You were not a party to the government's decision either. Does it make you feel better to be of no consequence?
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#206 Jul 07 2016 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
angrymnk wrote:

*shrug* He already had security. He had decent money. He had a stripper wife. He wiled away days in Hawaii. He need not have traded for security, because he already had it. What does that tell you?
He wanted more.


Please re-read, and resubmit for further rejection.
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#207 Jul 07 2016 at 7:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
You were not a party to the government's decision either.

Sure, that's for a conversation about the government. I'm talking about Snowden and the poor defense of "He did it for you and me". More to the point, his trading of US intel to Russia and China was done only for one person: himself.
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#208 Jul 07 2016 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
You were not a party to the government's decision either.

Sure, that's for a conversation about the government. I'm talking about Snowden and the poor defense of "He did it for you and me". More to the point, his trading of US intel to Russia and China was done only for one person: himself.


Ok. I certainly would like to avoid another detour. I am not sure how much you remember from that episode, but do you remember how it happened? Also, do you remember what did happen to the whistleblowers who did not think of themselves? Do you think it was a rational decision to make? More to the point, what do you think?
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#209 Jul 07 2016 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Your right, he should have just stayed in the US and have gotten executed or jailed for shedding light on unconstitutional programs that violated the civil liberties of Americans.

I know I feel much safer with US security and intel secrets in Putin's (and China's and God knows who elses) hands. Thanks, Snowden! Keep Tweeting, you magnificent hero!


Well, at least he didn't have Cabinet level access...
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#210 Jul 07 2016 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Your right, he should have just stayed in the US and have gotten executed or jailed for shedding light on unconstitutional programs that violated the civil liberties of Americans.

I know I feel much safer with US security and intel secrets in Putin's (and China's and God knows who elses) hands. Thanks, Snowden! Keep Tweeting, you magnificent hero!


Jophiel wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
Yeah, because if a single contractor can get their hands on them, it beyond the realm of possibility that any other actors already had their dirty paws in them.

That's the defense? I just want to be clear: The defense to Snowden trading US intel secrets to Russia for his own security ("but he did it for you!") is "Well, maybe they already knew"?

Well, ok then.


The way it should work, in an intelligently put together system, is for a whistle-blower to be able to say, hey, this **** is bananas, here is evidence, and the classified evidence is submitted to an investigation by an impartial agent, with details release to the public. Then congressional hearings are held, the problem gets debated, and solutions are implemented.

Instead what happens is the whistle-blower is silenced, by intimidation and coercion by those who have a vested interest in the information not being released, or they have to go outside the normal channels to release it, and there are a whole bunch of ****** knock on effects, that make everything bad and everyone mad. If you construct a system in such a way that fixing problems smoothly is impossible you are absolutely complicit in the damage caused by trying to fix problems in other ways.
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#211 Jul 07 2016 at 9:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
Do you think it was a rational decision to make? More to the point, what do you think?

I think it was a rational decision for his own self interests. It was not a rational decision for someone with the interests of the nation at heart. He is not a hero or a patriot, he's someone who got in over his head trying to make himself into a hero and then cowardly sold out to save his hide and avoid accountability regardless of the cost to the United States. You can see in the Oliver interview that he starts off saying he read all the documents, then backpedals to he "knew what was in them" and then tries to deflect "Well, the journalists have them now!" as a defense for his lack of understanding.
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#212 Jul 07 2016 at 9:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
Do you think it was a rational decision to make? More to the point, what do you think?

I think it was a rational decision for his own self interests. It was not a rational decision for someone with the interests of the nation at heart. He is not a hero or a patriot, he's someone who got in over his head trying to make himself into a hero and then cowardly sold out to save his hide and avoid accountability regardless of the cost to the United States. You can see in the Oliver interview that he starts off saying he read all the documents, then backpedals to he "knew what was in them" and then tries to deflect "Well, the journalists have them now!" as a defense for his lack of understanding.


Soo.. if I am hearing you correctly, you would totally call him a hero if only he faced the music like a manly man?
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#213 Jul 07 2016 at 9:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would certainly think better of him. Less so about "he faced the music!" and more "He didn't sell out US secrets to our enemies rather than face the music!"

Had he found a way to avoid responsibility without handing over a giant pile of US secrets to Putin in exchange for a bed (because he just loves us Americans so much), that would have been in his favor as well.

Edited, Jul 7th 2016 10:19pm by Jophiel
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#214 Jul 07 2016 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
Do you think it was a rational decision to make? More to the point, what do you think?

I think it was a rational decision for his own self interests. It was not a rational decision for someone with the interests of the nation at heart. He is not a hero or a patriot, he's someone who got in over his head trying to make himself into a hero and then cowardly sold out to save his hide and avoid accountability regardless of the cost to the United States. You can see in the Oliver interview that he starts off saying he read all the documents, then backpedals to he "knew what was in them" and then tries to deflect "Well, the journalists have them now!" as a defense for his lack of understanding.


He tried going to other places of less security risk to the US. It was made explicitly clear by the US response (downing planes, etc.) that that was unacceptable. Again, this could have been solved in a civil manner, but ,uh, people had vested interest in preventing that outcome.

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#215 Jul 07 2016 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I would certainly think better of him. Less so about "he faced the music!" and more "He didn't sell out US secrets to our enemies rather than face the music!"

Had he found a way to avoid responsibility without handing over a giant pile of US secrets to Putin in exchange for a bed (because he just loves us Americans so much), that would have been in his favor as well.

Edited, Jul 7th 2016 10:19pm by Jophiel


Again, there should not have been "music to face", so to speak.There were clear violations of the constitution and civil rights. Are you debating this?

If there is no way to fix those problems internally, that is a problem with the system.
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#216 Jul 07 2016 at 10:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Again, there should not have been "music to face", so to speak.

Theft and espionage are still crimes, I believe. Are you saying that you should be immune to those if you think you're acting in the common good? Shouldn't that be for the courts to decide rather than one guy who decides to be a hero and then sells out the US to other nations to evade prosecution?
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There were clear violations of the constitution and civil rights. Are you debating this?

I'm not debating it because it's irrelevant to his actions. You don't get to decide you're immune and allowed to break the law because you see someone else breaking the law. We call that vigilantism and it's only cute when Batman does it.

Yes, shockingly not a lot of nations want to take on a guy who just stole thousands of secrets from their ally, trade partners, etc. That's pretty much international diplomacy working as intended. Not much of an excuse for sucking Putin's dick for a set of sheets though.
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this could have been solved in a civil manner

The "civil manner" in this case is the rule of law. Which Snowden had zero interest in because that was inconvenient to his primary interests: himself.

Anyway, I'll let it set with that. Unless you have something to say that's going to change the fact that, when given the choice, Snowden overwhelmingly chose his own security over that of the United States', there really isn't much else to go round about.

Edited, Jul 7th 2016 11:49pm by Jophiel
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#217 Jul 07 2016 at 10:53 PM Rating: Good
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Theft and espionage are still crimes, I believe. Are you saying that you should be immune to those if you think you're acting in the common good? Shouldn't that be for the courts to decide rather than one guy who decides to be a hero and then sells out the US to other nations to evade prosecution?


Theft and espionage of files he had access to in the course of conducting his job? I was told mens rea was a factor in information control cases.

The intent was never to steal state secrets to sell to foreign powers; it was to make the public aware that they were being betrayed by the security apparatus that they trusted. I'd agree that the way he did so was deeply flawed, but how should he have brought this to the public's attention?
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#218 Jul 07 2016 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
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The "civil manner" in this case is the rule of law. Which Snowden had zero interest in because that was inconvenient to his primary interests: himself.

Anyway, I'll let it set with that. Unless you have something to say that's going to change the fact that, when given the choice, Snowden overwhelmingly chose his own security over that of the United States', there really isn't much else to go round about.


No, a "civil manner" would be identifying that this program was an overreach, presenting that information to people able to scuttle it, and then quietly doing so. Even though that path was barred, If the whistle blower protection act had been followed, again, this would not have gotten out of hand. It was not, so well, we ended with the shitshow we did.
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#219 Jul 08 2016 at 5:13 AM Rating: Default
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You guys have no idea on how many other unrelated programs were compromised because he decided to just turn over a bunch of data. He uncovered a number of programs and used that ONE program as a cover to the people to make him appear as a "hero". There are "whistle blowing" methods and ways to discuss this with the media without exposing all of the details. He did neither, because he was only after himself.
#220 Jul 08 2016 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
There were clear violations of the constitution and civil rights.
He solved a crime with a crime.
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#221 Jul 08 2016 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
There were clear violations of the constitution and civil rights.
He solved a crime with a crime.


So did the Underground Railroad. Actually, bad example as Slavery wasn't a crime at that point.

The Boston Tea Party also treason, and was less justified, and we celebrate that.

Edited, Jul 8th 2016 10:28am by Timelordwho
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#222 Jul 08 2016 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
The Boston Tea Party also treason, and was less justified, and we celebrate that.
Freedom! Murica!!!
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#223 Jul 08 2016 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
He solved a crime with a crime.


He should have just followed orders, right?
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#224 Jul 08 2016 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
The Boston Tea Party also treason, and was less justified, and we celebrate that.
They didn't run to a different country afterwards.
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#225 Jul 08 2016 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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They fled the jurisdiction, moving from the Thirteen Colonies to the USA. The responsible thing to do would have been to own up to their actions and sail off to England to be hanged.

Edited, Jul 8th 2016 11:07am by Kavekkk
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#226 Jul 08 2016 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
The intent was never to steal state secrets to sell to foreign powers

"Intent" loses relevance after you've shot a couple hostages in a panic and want to say you were just robbing the bank to feed orphans with its corrupt money. When the moment of truth came, Snowden caved, gave in to cowardice and handed over thousands of state secrets of hostile foreign nations to save his own ass. It was pretty much the worst possible outcome for the nation he was claiming to be helping. And it wasn't by mistake, he made the call "You know what? Keeping me out of jail is worth a lot more than the security of the US" and then he handed over thousands of documents -- which he admits he never actually read and can't attest to their contents or how they'd affect US security -- to China and Russia to save himself. Sorry man, I can't have any respect for that.

But I get it. I get why it's justifiable to some people. I get "The US was doing this stuff and he thought it was terrible and had to take a drastic action to let people know", etc. I don't think you're stupid or naive for thinking that way. We just weigh stuff differently and have different metrics for what we find acceptable.

Edited, Jul 8th 2016 10:30am by Jophiel
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