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#152 Jul 21 2016 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
The police interaction stats for middle class middle aged black men is pretty similar to that of middle class middle aged white men. It's almost like it's not actually about skin color...

Clearly.
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#153 Jul 21 2016 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
yeah, Gbaji, you're just wrong about this. The black experience is objectively different than the white experience.
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#154 Jul 21 2016 at 7:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's that sweet black existence for people with some money:
Senator Scott wrote:
Another time, he said, a cop pulled him onto a roadside median and declared that he believed the car Scott was driving might be stolen. “I also think about the experiences of my brother, who became a Command Sergeant Major in the United States Army, the highest rank for an enlisted soldier. He was driving from Texas to Charleston,” he said. “Pulled over by a law-enforcement officer who wanted to know if he had stolen the car that he was driving because it was a Volvo. I do not know many African American men who do not have a very similar story to tell no matter their profession, no matter their income, no matter their disposition in life.”

A former staffer of his was the subject of one such story. He drove a Chrysler 300, “a nice car, but not a Ferrari. He was pulled over so many times here in D.C. for absolutely no reason other than for driving a nice car.” He sold that car to stop being targeted.

Let me tell you, as a white dude I have cops asking me if my car is stolen because it looks too nice for me all the time. All. The. Time.
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#155 Jul 21 2016 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
yeah, Gbaji, you're just wrong about this. The black experience is objectively different than the white experience.
Gbaji's busy getting some stats from Heritage Foundation blogs. He'll be with you in a minute.

Here's some light reading in the meantime. Scroll down a ways and there's nifty charts and everything.

Edited, Jul 21st 2016 8:08pm by Jophiel
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#156 Jul 21 2016 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You mean the black experience you view through the lens of the media?

You're 33% more likely to be pulled over if you're black than if you're white. You are 300% more likely to be searched/frisked during a traffic stop if you are black than if you are white.


Uh huh. And here's why.
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#157 Jul 21 2016 at 7:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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And? Nothing in that article addresses police traffic stops.

According to the NYT article, if you are black and driving through Hoffman Estates, IL, you are 2.4x more likely to be searched than if you're white. The reason for this is not Hoffman Estates' poverty-ridden ghettos.

Edit: Originally wrote "pulled over", should have been "searched"

Edited, Jul 21st 2016 8:44pm by Jophiel
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#158 Jul 21 2016 at 7:15 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You mean the black experience you view through the lens of the media?

You're 33% more likely to be pulled over if you're black than if you're white. You are 300% more likely to be searched/frisked during a traffic stop if you are black than if you are white.


Uh huh. And here's why.
See post 115.
#159 Jul 21 2016 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The police interaction stats for middle class middle aged black men is pretty similar to that of middle class middle aged white men. It's almost like it's not actually about skin color...

Clearly.


And yet, amazingly, he never got shot even once. Um... Anecdotes are anecdotes. Or is this where I talk about how many times I've been pulled over? It's far more about where and when you are driving than any other factor. But every time a black driver is pulled over for no apparent reason, it's declared to be racial bias, but then how do you explain all the times white drivers are pulled over, also for no apparent reason? Are those also because of racial bias? Or can we accept that cops do pull people over for "no apparent reason", all the time? And if we accept that, and we accept that there's a higher ratio of cops in high crime areas than low crime areas, and accept that black poverty rates and patterns result in a disproportionate percentage of blacks living, working, and yes driving in those areas, the broad statistics are reasonably explained.

And the individual anecdotes are just that. They don't prove a pattern. Tying the stats and the anecdotes as you're doing is not a good method to make any determination about the cause of this problem.

Edited, Jul 21st 2016 6:41pm by gbaji
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#160 Jul 21 2016 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
My favorite part of the exchange:

the article wrote:
‘I still got my hands in the air, and I said, ‘No, I just got shot! And I’m saying, ‘Sir, why did you shoot me?'
and his words to me, he said, ‘I don’t know.'”



Looks like a Union rep has come out and said that the Officer shot the man by accident. That he was aiming for the autistic white guy cause he thought he had a gun and was going to kill Kinsey.

But that part of the story makes the handcuffing of the man they just accidentally shot while trying to save his life a bit odd...

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#161 Jul 21 2016 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:

gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You mean the black experience you view through the lens of the media?

You're 33% more likely to be pulled over if you're black than if you're white. You are 300% more likely to be searched/frisked during a traffic stop if you are black than if you are white.

Uh huh. And here's why.

Huffpost Article TITLE wrote:
Black GOP Senator Talks About Being Pulled Over By Police 7 Times In One Year

Being poor is not why blacks are getting pulled over. It is because of the color of their skin.
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#162 Jul 21 2016 at 7:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And the individual anecdotes are just that. They don't prove a pattern.

They just color the stats showing the huge discrepancy in traffic stops. But I know you don't have data in your favor nor anecdotes in your favor so... ummm... well, I know you won't let that stop you. Keep on being a white Republican, Gbaji Smiley: laugh
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#163 Jul 21 2016 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
That he was aiming for the autistic white guy cause he thought he had a gun and was going to kill Kinsey.

He thought the autistic guy had a gun based on the umpteen times Kinsey said "That's not a gun", obviously.
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#164 Jul 21 2016 at 7:46 PM Rating: Default
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That's the crazy part. The person not acknowledging the police officer with the potential firearm was left alone. The person lying on the ground with his hands up was shot.
#165 Jul 21 2016 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Huffpost Article TITLE wrote:
Black GOP Senator Talks About Being Pulled Over By Police 7 Times In One Year

Being poor is not why blacks are getting pulled over. It is because of the color of their skin.


I've been pulled over as many as 15-20 times in a year. It is entirely about where and when you are driving. Guess what? If you're white, and you're driving late at night in a neighborhood where there's a lot of white drug dealers, you will get pulled over a lot. If you're black, and you're driving late at night in a neighborhood with a lot of black drug dealers, you're going to get pulled over a lot.

The statistical difference is that there are a lot more neighborhoods full of black drug dealers than there are those full of white drug dealers. Additionally, a middle class white man is less likely to be driving through a poor neighborhood with predominately white drug dealers, late at night, while a middle class black man (for a host of social reasons) is far more likely to be driving through a poor neighborhood with predominately black drug dealers, late at night.

There are several real social and economic issues at play here that contribute to this problem. My issue is with deciding to blame the people at the very tail end of that very long set of circumstances (ie: police pulling people over). That cop didn't create the conditions that he has to deal with. He just has to deal with them. I guess my biggest issue with this whole thing is that it's unclear what policy changes people think could be made at the policing level to fix this? Not pull people over? Not respond to calls in predominately black neighborhoods? I'm not sure that's really a good solution to this problem.
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#166 Jul 21 2016 at 7:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I've been pulled over as many as 15-20 times in a year.

Wow, you drive for shit, dude. That's not "neighborhoods" or even skin color -- you're just one fucking terrible driver.
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#167 Jul 21 2016 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The police interaction stats for middle class middle aged black men is pretty similar to that of middle class middle aged white men. It's almost like it's not actually about skin color...

Clearly.


Yeah, but he bought a red car, so ...
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#168 Jul 21 2016 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I've been pulled over as many as 15-20 times in a year.
gbaji wrote:
And the individual anecdotes are just that. They don't prove a pattern.


Edited, Jul 21st 2016 10:00pm by lolgaxe
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#169 Jul 21 2016 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
And? Nothing in that article addresses police traffic stops.

According to the NYT article, if you are black and driving through Hoffman Estates, IL, you are 2.4x more likely to be searched than if you're white. The reason for this is not Hoffman Estates' poverty-ridden ghettos.


What's the old saying? There are lies, **** lies, and statistics. Median income aside, the linked article shows that 5.5% of the population lives under the poverty line. So we can assume that even within the relatively small area, there are "good parts" and "bad parts" of town, right? Want to take a wild guess at how the racial makeup of the 5.5% living below the poverty line is compared to the whole? 4.8% of the entire population is black. You want to make a bet that the percentage of the population living below the poverty line in that village who are black is higher (probably several times higher)? Want to further bet on how concentrated geographically the poor black population is relative to the poor white population?

As I keep repeating every time this subject comes up, the issue of relative negative police interactions by race is a symptom of another, much larger, problem. Treating it as an isolated problem to be "solved" is a waste of time and effort. We could spend billions of dollars and years of time training and re-training and screening and psychologically evaluating and doing everything we can to try to change the cops behaviors, and it's not going to have more than the slightest effect on the resulting stats. Because these are relative stats. Any change in tactics and methodology and personnel, to whatever degree they have any effect, will not just change the stats with regard to interactions with black subjects. It will affect all traffic stops, and all pedestrian stops, and all domestic violence calls, and all uses of gear and weapons, and will thus change the stats with regard to white subjects too. And the relative stats will still look just as bad. It'll still look like there's racial bias because the bias is baked into the socio-economic conditions that the cops operate in. It's not coming from them.

Edited, Jul 21st 2016 7:08pm by gbaji
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#170 Jul 21 2016 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
As I keep repeating every time this subject comes up,
gbaji wrote:
You keep saying that, but merely repeating the same statement over and over doesn't make it true.
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#171 Jul 21 2016 at 8:09 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
As I keep repeating every time this subject comes up,
gbaji wrote:
You keep saying that, but merely repeating the same statement over and over doesn't make it true.


The word "merely" actually does serve a purpose in that sentence.
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#172 Jul 21 2016 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I've been pulled over as many as 15-20 times in a year.

Wow, you drive for shit, dude. That's not "neighborhoods" or even skin color -- you're just one fucking terrible driver.

Maybe he just drives around with a lot of drug dealers?
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#173 Jul 21 2016 at 8:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
What's the old saying? There are lies, **** lies, and statistics. Median income aside, the linked article shows that 5.5% of the population lives under the poverty line. So we can assume that even within the relatively small area, there are "good parts" and "bad parts" of town, right?

Nah. I've been to Hoffman Estates. You haven't. The rest of you frantically trying to spin an answer is meaningless to that basic fact.
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#174 Jul 21 2016 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The word "merely" actually does serve a purpose in that sentence.
gbaji wrote:
Perception is not equal to reality.
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#175 Jul 21 2016 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Huffpost Article TITLE wrote:
Black GOP Senator Talks About Being Pulled Over By Police 7 Times In One Year

Being poor is not why blacks are getting pulled over. It is because of the color of their skin.


I've been pulled over as many as 15-20 times in a year.


And how many times did they pull you over and ask you if the car was stolen?
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#176 Jul 21 2016 at 11:53 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You mean the black experience you view through the lens of the media?

You're 33% more likely to be pulled over if you're black than if you're white. You are 300% more likely to be searched/frisked during a traffic stop if you are black than if you are white.
Jeez, Jophiel; you just keep throwing facts out like they mean something.
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#177 Jul 22 2016 at 12:20 AM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Huffpost Article TITLE wrote:
Black GOP Senator Talks About Being Pulled Over By Police 7 Times In One Year
Being poor is not why blacks are getting pulled over. It is because of the color of their skin.
I've been pulled over as many as 15-20 times in a year.
And how many times did they pull you over and ask you if the car was stolen?
More than once, I imagine, since he's driving around looking for white drug dealers.

That was his reasoning for getting pulled over, right?
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#178 Jul 22 2016 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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Friar Bijou wrote:
That was his reasoning for getting pulled over, right?
Or all the time he spends at school zones.
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#179 Jul 22 2016 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I've been pulled over as many as 15-20 times in a year. It is entirely about where and when you are driving.
Smiley: eek

You know, when you said having a car gave you the freedom to drive anywhere you want, I kind of assumed you were still obeying traffic laws and stuff. Smiley: um
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#180 Jul 22 2016 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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Stop lights, seatbelts, and speed limits are all fetters of fascism upon the free.
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#181 Jul 22 2016 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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If I was a white guy who couldn't go three weeks on average without the police pulling me over, I'd probably claim it's entirely about when and where I'm driving, too.
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#182 Jul 22 2016 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The police interaction stats for middle class middle aged black men is pretty similar to that of middle class middle aged white men. It's almost like it's not actually about skin color...

Clearly.


I read that article ( surprise ). How dare that white officer not recognize his Highness's bobby pin and do his job instead? What annoys me even more that a supervisor called to apologize instead of explaining why he needs his ID from time to time. Cuz not everyone ****** knows his ***.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2016 1:01pm by angrymnk
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#183 Jul 22 2016 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
How dare that white officer not recognize his Highness's bobby pin and do his job instead?

Actually the guard said he recognized the pin, he just didn't believe that Senator Scott should be wearing it. After five years at the Capitol.

I won't pretend to know all the ins and outs of Capitol security and protocol, but this old Slate article suggests that Congressmen typically wear their pins to get past security without issue and that wearing your pin is less common in the Senate because, with their longer terms, guards recognize the senators. Which would make it curious that Scott was stopped because he was wearing his pin.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2016 12:12pm by Jophiel
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#184 Jul 22 2016 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Is this the official gun thread now?

Because more people are shooting people...
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#185 Jul 22 2016 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
If I was a white guy who couldn't go three weeks on average without the police pulling me over, I'd probably claim it's entirely about when and where I'm driving, too.
I'd just regale all with the tale of how I was born a poor black child.
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#186 Jul 22 2016 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's Totem's schtick.
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#187 Jul 22 2016 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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#188 Jul 22 2016 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
How dare that white officer not recognize his Highness's bobby pin and do his job instead?

Actually the guard said he recognized the pin, he just didn't believe that Senator Scott should be wearing it. After five years at the Capitol.

I won't pretend to know all the ins and outs of Capitol security and protocol, but this old Slate article suggests that Congressmen typically wear their pins to get past security without issue and that wearing your pin is less common in the Senate because, with their longer terms, guards recognize the senators. Which would make it curious that Scott was stopped because he was wearing his pin.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2016 12:12pm by Jophiel


Frankly, I do not know either. I was never a career politician and with my nonexistent social skills I am likely to remain so. That said, if you read the article you linked, you would notice that the first paragraph quotes McKinney as saying:

Quote:
"It is true that at the time I was not wearing my pin. But many Members of Congress aren't wearing their pins.."


I do think it may be a little too much to ask for a guard to recognize 435 rep. faces ( + 100 senator faces ). Granted, some of them are more memorable than others, but it may be a little ******* much don't you think?

But back to the point, how does that have anything to do with race? It does not. It reads like a guy's first day on the job who gets steamrolled by a guy who sees racism everywhere.

Addendum.

Two police cops stops in the past year. Also, one stop YTD. But those were suburbs cops. They is bored.


Edited, Jul 22nd 2016 8:01pm by angrymnk

Edited, Jul 22nd 2016 8:01pm by angrymnk
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#189 Jul 22 2016 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
That said, if you read the article you linked, you would notice that the first paragraph quotes McKinney as saying

Sure, but we were talking about Senator Scott. I simply linked the other article for a little information about the pins. Scott was wearing the pin and is one of 100 members on the Senate side of the building. He had also been there for five years when this happened. He wasn't one of the 435 on the House side, many of whom rotate out after two years.
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#190 Jul 22 2016 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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And more to the point, a quote from Senator Scott:
Quote:
It’s easy to identify a U.S. senator by our pin. I recall walking into an office building just last year after being here for five years on the Capitol, and the officer looked at me, with a little attitude, and said: “The pin, I know. You, I don’t. Show me your ID.”
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#191 Jul 22 2016 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
Two police cops stops in the past year. Also, one stop YTD. But those were suburbs cops. They is bored.
Smiley: dubious

Either you people are all weird or I need to learn to live a little. Smiley: lol
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#192 Jul 22 2016 at 7:33 PM Rating: Default
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I've only been pulled over three times.
1. DWB
2. The sound of my car while pulling out my school's parking lot
3. Forgot to turn on my headlights while driving at night.
#193 Jul 23 2016 at 4:45 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque doesn't even sound oppressed, what are these police doing???
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#194 Jul 23 2016 at 6:29 AM Rating: Default
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If I thought about, I'm sure that I've had more "negative" run ins, than "positive"; however, I know that those interactions don't represent everyone.
#195 Jul 23 2016 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've been driving with a busted tail light for two years now* and haven't been pulled over, even when there's a cop right behind me.

You all are doing it wrong.

*Replacing bulb didn't work, replacing the entire coupler unit for the rear lights didn't work, seems to be an electrical issue further up and then I stopped caring.
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#196 Jul 23 2016 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I've been driving with a busted tail light for two years now* and haven't been pulled over, even when there's a cop right behind me.

You all are doing it wrong.

*Replacing bulb didn't work, replacing the entire coupler unit for the rear lights didn't work, seems to be an electrical issue further up and then I stopped caring.


Wow. my taillight was out for at max a week (I don't check this daily, sue me) before I got stopped.

Maybe you should look into smuggling or something.
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#197 Jul 23 2016 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
I*Replacing bulb didn't work, replacing the entire coupler unit for the rear lights didn't work, seems to be an electrical issue further up and then I stopped caring.
Had something like that on my old jeep. After I did the obvious replacements and things within my power, I had someone look into it at a shop while I was getting something else fixed (old car was old...). Was told it'd be several hundred dollars to tear off the paneling and replace the wires. Given the jeep wasn't even worth several hundred dollars things came to an obvious conclusion.

Timelordwho wrote:
Maybe you should look into smuggling or something.
Why do you think he's been to Hoffman Estates? 2.4x less likely to be searched... Smiley: tinfoilhat

Edited, Jul 23rd 2016 8:32am by someproteinguy
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#198 Jul 23 2016 at 9:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I'll be replacing this car in the next six months so I just need to evade the notice of Johnny Law for that much longer!
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#199 Jul 25 2016 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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I've never been pulled over on the subway. Just sayin'.
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#200 Jul 25 2016 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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I've yet to get pulled over, but then I've only had a license for 1 year. I have had a friend pulled over in my neighborhood for driving while white. Police will pull people over and question why they are in the area of drug dealers, if they don't know you live around here. We have broken, tail light, but since we taped it with the correct tape and it still lights up, we don't have to worry.
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#201 Jul 25 2016 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I've been pulled over as many as 15-20 times in a year.

Wow, you drive for shit, dude. That's not "neighborhoods" or even skin color -- you're just one fucking terrible driver.

Maybe he just drives around with a lot of drug dealers?


Not one ticket in all of those pull overs btw (well, except for one, but that was a special case). This was back when I was working a mix of swing and grave shifts, and thus was driving to or from work between the hours of 10:30PM and 2:30AM. And I drove through a section of town that was well known as having a fair number of meth dealers. So yeah, merely being the only car on the road driving through that part of town late at night gets you pulled over. A lot.

What was funny was that this particular area was covered by the county sheriffs department, not a local city department. I figured out quite quickly that they rotate their personnel around the county every 6 months (spring and fall IIRC), because I'd get pulled over 1-2 times a week for like 4-5 weeks, then not get pulled over again for 6 months. Then the pattern would repeat.

They aren't supposed to pull people over for no reason other than to check out the driver, but the reality is that's exactly what the cops do. And it has nothing at all to do with the skin color of the driver. It has to do with the time and location where they see your car. They make up excuses for why they pulled you over, usually giving you a "warning" about some minor thing (mirror not adjusted properly, tail light too dim, license plate obstructed, etc). The difference is that I don't assume that my skin color was why I got pulled over. I assume that the cops see a car driving through a questionable part of town late at night, and are bored, so they pull the car over. And guess what? If it's a predominately black area, it's going to mostly be black people being pulled over. Shocking, huh? And, if the national statistics show that black people are significantly more likely to live in a questionable area, guess what that does to the national stats on this sort of thing?

Does this mean that no cop uses racial bias? Of course not. But it's not the broad systemic problem that some are trying to make it out to be. As I've been saying all along, the only real solution to these skewed stats is to fix the underlying issue of disproportionate black poverty. Until we make measurable inroads in that problem, all the training and methodological changes on the part of the cops isn't going to change the relative stats. It can't.
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