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#102 Apr 30 2016 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:


I remember there was a time, even on these forums, people considered instant kill mechanics and "one person dying = all dying" the furthest thing from "difficulty." So suffice to say, XIV is one of the easier MMOs because unlike most other MMOs, it's HEAVILY script based to the point if you can find a way to break even one line of the script, the monster just sits there because it doesn't know what to do.


I wish you should stop saying things that don't make sense. I always hated instakill mechanics (as well as in XI). You can consider it "easy", while I consider it "stupid", because unless you memorize the entire script, you'll die. And you'll keep dying until you do (or you accidentally ***** up). That's idiotic, as much as the "fabled" XI's endgame (for different reasons and design, though). I do not care about a fight which kills me if I forget to activate combo "x" at time "y". This has nothing to do with "MMO player skill being low", it's simply bad design. Oh, and the Coil fights are the same, despite you sort of "praising" them.

I've completely given up on the idea of finishing the Coil story on my own due to the stupid design of the fights.

Also, you're thinking a bit too high of the JP player community, IMO, and that comes from someone playing on a JP server as well (not to mention knowing the language).
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#103 Apr 30 2016 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
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If you think Coil was anywhere near the same as Savage Alexander..I really wonder if that comes down to personal playerskill (yours) or you actually not even trying Savage Alexander.

Because even back when Coil was prime, it was in no way filled to the brim with instant death mechanics and literally 9/10 mechanic mess-ups resulting in a raid wipe.

Second Coil Savage? The optional one that wasn't required for progression? Yes, they're similar to Savage Alexander, but the actual balanced versions? Not unless the version of Coil I did was completely different from the one you did, because the only comparison, obviously, would be T5/T9/T10 and T13. I'm not talking about high damage or debuffs that can wipe you, I'm literally talking about no way to prevent it simply because 1 person died (which Alexander Savage is full of compared to Coil.)
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#104 Apr 30 2016 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Because even back when Coil was prime, it was in no way filled to the brim with instant death mechanics and literally 9/10 mechanic mess-ups resulting in a raid wipe.


First coil was actually pretty good up until Turn 5. But even considering the punishing nature of T5, I do like how that first coil raid was designed because the turns actually got progressively more difficult. That said, groups would almost certainly wipe when making specific mistakes on each turn. So while "insta-death" may not be accurate, the term "certain death" still applies. But the first four turns seemed to apply these punishing mechanics in a progressively more logical manner.

Turn 5, on the other hand, kind of nullified the rest of coil for too many players. It required too much memorization for people to reasonably do in pickup parties. I finally beat T5 as part of a coil static last year, and it still took us weeks of practice. A big part of the problem was that if anyone was absent, we'd have to find someone else through the PF, and then the entire group could only progress up to the point in the fight the new person had memorized. It was dumb because the rest of us knew what we were doing, but we couldn't progress because of single people making mistakes.

The second coil raid was bad (for lack of a better word.. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to say it absolutely sucked... I'm kind of tired atm) right out of the gate. Turn 6 was way more difficult than turns 1, 2, 3 or 4. And it was also harder than some of the turns that came after it. Right off the bat, there was a huge bottleneck that most players couldn't clear (no wonder why the hardcores loved it).

Anyway, for me to sit here and call coil "bad design" is about as silly as saying everything in the game is easy and people who can't find groups to work at efficiently memorizing battle scripts don't have skill. This content definitely appeals to a niche group of the playerbase, and there's nothing wrong with niche content.

But it makes no sense why SE keeps making that type of content (only more complicated in later coil and Alexander raids) as the game's only form of progression endgame. Most people who play MMOs want access to some kind of endgame -- something they can work toward without the game becoming a second job. If SE wanted to please more of its players and keep more subscribers around, they'd put on their thinking caps and implement some kind of endgame like we had in XI.


Edited, Apr 30th 2016 2:04pm by Thayos

Edited, Apr 30th 2016 2:20pm by Thayos
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#105 May 01 2016 at 1:32 AM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
If you think Coil was anywhere near the same as Savage Alexander..I really wonder if that comes down to personal playerskill (yours) or you actually not even trying Savage Alexander.


I only know I did 15 tries of T5 before winning. It wasn't fun, and we won by luck. It never felt I was knowing what to do, despite following "the script". By contrast, in XI I redid "When Angels Fall" (PM8-3) which I redid like 11 times we won because we changed strategy midfight, something that XIV can't do. If you're hit by Twintania's divebombs and aren't in the "good position" you're screwed. If you don't kill the snakes fast enough, you're screwed. It's not "skill", it's just DPS checks and memorization. The same mechanics are put in Alexander, only on a more extreme variation (as well as most battles in the entire game).

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Because even back when Coil was prime, it was in no way filled to the brim with instant death mechanics and literally 9/10 mechanic mess-ups resulting in a raid wipe.


As of today I haven't beat T9 due to the idiocy of its mechanics, and I don't plan to do it unless they actually implement real strategy instead of instafail mechanics.

Edited, May 1st 2016 9:34am by xizro
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#106 May 01 2016 at 4:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Speaking of First Coil, iirc, Turn 2 had semi random mechanic order (basically, ADS spells went on CD instead of a set rotation, similar with Twintania and Dhorme Chimera). I always thought that it was the best designed fight of the game.
#107 May 01 2016 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
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As of today I haven't beat T9 due to the idiocy of its mechanics, and I don't plan to do it unless they actually implement real strategy instead of instafail mechanics.


I haven't really beaten T9 either. I've gotten a clear on it, sure, due to pretty much getting carried through the entire 2nd half by people who only miraculously won it by the skin of their teeth... but nobody in my shoes could really call that a true victory, right?
#108 May 01 2016 at 6:56 AM Rating: Excellent
My t9 win was also on a carry. I learned the fight up until my last phase, but that is when my static broke apart after weeks of bashing our heads against the wall. We kept having to replace one person here or there, and each time that would reset our progress as the new people worked to memorize the scripts. My carry came much later after the fight was nerfed. Not fun at all.
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#109 May 01 2016 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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Personally I have never been a big fan of content that is made to be impossible until you have done it way too many times and memorized the fight. I mean I raided in WoW back in TBC and it was fun but I wish there was other type of endgame as well. Say what you will about XI but the variety in content to do at endgame was pretty cool even if some people had to do them for maybe too long and got bored of that as well.
#110 May 01 2016 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Holhorse wrote:
Speaking of First Coil, iirc, Turn 2 had semi random mechanic order (basically, ADS spells went on CD instead of a set rotation, similar with Twintania and Dhorme Chimera). I always thought that it was the best designed fight of the game.


I loved Turn 2's design which is why I only ran it with people I know because the general playerbase loved the enrage method, which should further prove despite popular belief coil is and was far more accessible to people.

I mean, why sit there for ages when you could have cleared it 3x in the span of waiting for 1 enrage clear? Basically you go "right or left" progressing through the turn based solely on your party composition or if you want to deal wwith ADS having haste or not.
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#111 May 01 2016 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Voice chat is garbage and the downfall of online gaming. The fact that devs have built games based on it just sucks.
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#112 May 01 2016 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
Voice chat is garbage and the downfall of online gaming. The fact that devs have built games based on it just sucks.


Which games have been built based on voice chat?

Personally I only use it for raids because typing instructions or changes in plan mid-fight is super slow AND requires raiders to take their eyes away from what they're supposed to be looking at to read a chat log. I honestly don't understand the overwhelming hate that voice chat gets. This isn't rando Xbox Live 10-year olds screaming profanity at you, this is your raid team talking about the boss you're fighting.. what's the problem?
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#113 May 01 2016 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
Voice chat is garbage and the downfall of online gaming. The fact that devs have built games based on it just sucks.


Which games have been built based on voice chat?


The endgame for any worthwhile PVE MMOs?
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#114 May 01 2016 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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BrokenFox wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
Voice chat is garbage and the downfall of online gaming. The fact that devs have built games based on it just sucks.


Which games have been built based on voice chat?


The endgame for any worthwhile PVE MMOs?


Even if I conceded that point, which I do not, that's one part of some games which doesn't sound to me like games being built on a feature they don't natively have.
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#115 May 01 2016 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:

I haven't really beaten T9 either. I've gotten a clear on it, sure, due to pretty much getting carried through the entire 2nd half by people who only miraculously won it by the skin of their teeth... but nobody in my shoes could really call that a true victory, right?


I think I got past the Megaflare phase once. Usually people died during the golem phase for no reason (at least that I could discern), despite following the protocol to the letter.
Oh and I absolutely despise voice chat. I only use it with people I know personally, so not on FFXIV. I actually cleared First Coil without it despite people saying it was essential.

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I loved Turn 2's design which is why I only ran it with people I know because the general playerbase loved the enrage method, which should further prove despite popular belief coil is and was far more accessible to people.


It is not. Enrage was a cheese method...much like a lot of XI's playerbase did with certain content, to the point of outright cheating (see Salvage duping as an extreme, but I can count any -burn parties, specialists ideas for CoP, etc.)

Edited, May 1st 2016 9:02pm by xizro
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#116 May 01 2016 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
T2 was again a fight with instant kill mechanics on certain jobs, and depending who you lost, almost unrecoverable (especially early on). The enrage method was easier, but man it took a ton of time for nothing.
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#117 May 01 2016 at 2:31 PM Rating: Default
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xizro wrote:
It is not. Enrage was a cheese method...much like a lot of XI's playerbase did with certain content, to the point of outright cheating (see Salvage duping as an extreme, but I can count any -burn parties, specialists ideas for CoP, etc.)

Edited, May 1st 2016 9:02pm by xizro


It is. I see SIGNIFICANTLY higher Coil/Second/Final Coil clear rates, let alone attempts, than I do Savage Alexander...unless I misunderstand what accessibly means in the west.
(inb4 "but it's still low because it's only for a small group of people etc etc.")

Also, SE, Yoshida specifically, accepted the Enrage "cheese" as a strategy, since for some people, watching a debuff is too complicated.

Something as simple as that is "too hard" for people means the "general playerbase" can't handle midcore content because if simply running to another player is too hard, what kind of content can they make where people expected to get useful rewards..?



Edited, May 1st 2016 1:36pm by Theonehio
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#118 May 01 2016 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Something as simple as that is "too hard" for people means the "general playerbase" can't handle midcore content because if simply running to another player is too hard, what kind of content can they make where people expected to get useful rewards..?


Until they change the entire combat system/twitch mechanics, there's nothing they can do. The only way to make things harder is by adding more flashiness/colors exploding on screen giving you a seizure, and one hit kill mechanics. This is the biggest problem with their current setup (and the setup of most MMOs), it's beyond limited in how you can vary things. Sure they vary some "abilities" to do certain things, but in the end, if not taken care of it just leads to you getting smacked to death in one hit.

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#119 May 01 2016 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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BrokenFox wrote:
Voice chat is garbage and the downfall of online gaming. The fact that devs have built games based on it just sucks.

I would just like to express my gratitude. I haven't heard anything this silly in quite a while on these forums. I'm reaching a bit, but this is easily worth a mention.

Can you explain why having easier communication options is bad, especially in a game that is heavily reliant on being able to communicate and interact with other players?

That's like walking up to a group of friends, whipping out your phone and sending them all a group text message instead of just opening your mouth and saying saying something.

I really feel that the only major issue with voice chat is that it was introduced to a slice of the population that tends to lean toward the socially awkward side. You have a lot of players who are fully capable of using voice chat who just prefer not to. I respect that, but they should also respect that many people
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#120 May 01 2016 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
I don't use voice chat with strangers because I've heard far too many horror stories of people just being awful to each other. The whole emo thing just isn't my bag. I also don't like voice chat in general because it breaks my immersion. But I'll use it with people I know, no prob.

Filth, I think you are misunderstanding the post you quoted. I'm pretty sure he is referencing the dependence on twitch mechanics and AOL circles to balance out the widespread use of voice chat. If you think about it, game design would be much more creative if less-punishing mechanics were more universally difficult, which would be the case without voice chat.

Very little endgame in XI, if any, required voice chat, and people were mostly happy with that for years. Couldn't imagine raiding without it in XIV though. It's simply too critical when working to memorize fight scripts.

Edited, May 1st 2016 4:13pm by Thayos
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#121 May 01 2016 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Also, SE, Yoshida specifically, accepted the Enrage "cheese" as a strategy, since for some people, watching a debuff is too complicated.

Just because it's not what the devs intended doesn't mean it's not a viable strategy. People found an easier way of winning. Can you blame them for using it?

Again, making the FFXI comparison, did we EVER play FFXI the way the devs actually intended?


Thayos wrote:
Very little endgame in XI, if any, required voice chat, and people were mostly happy with that for years.

XI was a very different game though. Few fights had any real strategy beyond "kite x" and "stun y." Mechanics as we know them today didn't really exist.

I think twitch mechanics and 1-shot abilities are the natural evolution in a world where the internet has video guides and can math out rotations for you on launch day. I don't think voice chat really had much to do with it.
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#122 May 01 2016 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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I don't use voice chat with strangers because I've heard far too many horror stories of people just being awful to each other.


Having been in dozens of them in pick-up raids and guild raids alike, this has literally never happened to me. Actually, in my experience, people tend to be MORE forgiving of mistakes and LESS toxic overall when you're on comms with them.

Quote:
Very little endgame in XI, if any, required voice chat, and people were mostly happy with that for years.


It also wasn't really a thing for a large percentage of FFXI's prime. Teamspeak popped up a little but it didn't have wide acceptance. The fact is FFXI's endgame was simplistic enough that it also wasn't necessary. And the gameplay was also much slower overall.

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Again, making the FFXI comparison, did we EVER play FFXI the way the devs actually intended?


Most of the time you never knew what, if anything, the devs intended. The only time you found out was when they said that the players had done something they hadn't intended (like NIN being a tank for one).
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#123 May 01 2016 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Having been in dozens of them in pick-up raids and guild raids alike, this has literally never happened to me. Actually, in my experience, people tend to be MORE forgiving of mistakes and LESS toxic overall when you're on comms with them.


Players you pick up tend to be more conscious of how they play and conduct themselves in vent, raidcall, ect. because they usually want to be invited back. As someone who's also been in a ton of private voice channels not belonging to me, I can attest that the vast majority are at least respectful.

My point is more that mechanics aren't developed to be harder because voice chat exists. The only time you really make use of chat during an encounter is for supportive instructions like "[insert boss mechanic here] in 10 seconds". Maybe here and there with spot commands when your cooldown isn't ready or the boss drops a puddle of death where you were going to stank and you need to adjust that.

To be perfectly honest, the only time i find voice chat to be incredibly useful is in PvP where you actually have to act and react completely different from match to match in some cases. I'm not sure why anyone would highlight voice chat as an issue when they've already said that the encounters are too scripted.

Bad players will still be bad and good players good regardless of voice communication as an option.
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#124 May 01 2016 at 7:40 PM Rating: Good
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I'm talking about things like burn parties and WS spamming on VTs and stuff. There's no way the game was designed with that in mind.
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#125 May 01 2016 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
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Karlina wrote:
I'm talking about things like burn parties and WS spamming on VTs and stuff. There's no way the game was designed with that in mind.


I don't think they actually designed classes with anything in mind beyond some vague concept of what the class was supposed to do (PLD guy with shield, BLM cast make big boom). They said numerous times that they just put things out there and watched what the community did with them.
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#126 May 01 2016 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
Also, SE, Yoshida specifically, accepted the Enrage "cheese" as a strategy, since for some people, watching a debuff is too complicated.

Just because it's not what the devs intended doesn't mean it's not a viable strategy. People found an easier way of winning. Can you blame them for using it?


No, but the fact you could clear Turn 2 no less than 3 times (if optimal) in the time it takes to do ONE enrage, I don't know if it's easier because it's also far more harder on the heal check than doing the run normally.
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