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#27 Apr 25 2016 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
And why the hell are we reverting back to this stupid conversation in a thread about Deep Dungeons?

Can we PLEASE try to keep this thread on topic? I'd hate to have to lock this too.

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I guarantee "Deep Dungeons" is also a waste of resources until we see otherwise, because it will be a flat out lie if you sit and tell me people run the new dungeons to run them and not because of, say, the Lore tomes.


You're assuming that I'd disagree with you about why people run the standard dungeons. Just FYI, your assumptions about me are repeatedly wrong, so you may want to change your tactics a bit.

I don't think we have enough information yet to declare "Deep Dungeons" will be a waste of resources. Sounds like you've already made up your mind, though.

Here's a question, Hio... what would it take (other than expanding the party size) for Deep Dungeons to be "satisfying" for you?

Edited, Apr 25th 2016 6:20pm by Thayos
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#28 Apr 25 2016 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
The progression at least power and stat wise is locked to the content itself. The best thing I can compare it to is sort of like Guild Wars 2 are Maguuma masteries or Diablo 3 set dungeons, except the dungeons are random. I am hoping it functions closer to set dungeons and it might since they spoke of a leaderboard, hopefully it does stat tracking for rewarding skillful play.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/

http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Set_Dungeon

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=1447257488268301773&h=50&p=2#73

Wanting to discuss possibilities further looking at the two links I provided earlier and one link to an old post.

I mentioned a kudos reward system from PGR that GW2 and Diablo 3 dabble into. What if the objective of Deep Dungeons wasn't just to progress further but had multiple side objectives. What if gear wasn't the only progression in this content? Because this content is self contained at the moment, there really are no rules on how horizontal progression can be or how multi-dimensional. Now if what I put forward isn't currently in the works then it probably won't be in by that strict deadline.

What character improvements take less work and space than creating multiple sets of gear to fill specific situational instances? Traits... What if traits could be unlocked by completing main and side objectives in addition to advancing deep inside the dungeons? Think back to older rpgs like Zelda and other where you discovered special items that would help you reach places or kill things you never could before.

Let's assume different random monsters spawn in random places throughout the dungeon. Let's say doing or reacting to certain things skillfully at opportune times result in a percentage of an objective rising, as your completion percentage rises in that category, you start progressing towards a unique trait/item/key item that helps clear the dungeon until you master it.

Example: Some side objectives-
*Defeating dragons staying above 40% health= +2 Resistance to dragon breaths
*Use a certain skill at a precise time 5 times= +2 Dragon Killer effect
*Defeating all enemies on a floor within a time limit= +10 minute time extension
*Retrieve 8 spheres of wind on floor 2= Obtain Boots of Wind(+2 movement speed)
*Solve the puzzle of the Dire Knight= Obtain Veil of Destiny(Auto-Regen+1 tick)
*Jump across the chaotic mist without falling= Falling damage reduced by 2%
*Follow the spirit without losing sight= Hidden Doors become revealed
*Survive mine field to reach Magma Armor= Ability to walk through fire taking considerably less damage.

Obviously there would have to be set dungeons way farther into progression to put all these boons to good use. But I think I made my point. If am a level 60 dragon slayer I should be adept at that but not so great at killing ogres or some other beast or procuring their drops. Special drops for crafting class specific armor could come from enemies and bosses similar to Titanite Shards,etc ala Dark Souls. The possible traits or traversal items are endless!

All of these upgrades could be carried on improved until the max depths of the deep dungeons. After that it would be up to SE to keep this progression self contained or allow it to spread to incoming content down the road.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/vxoc9tksuvuvp4n938ua.jpg

Edited, Apr 25th 2016 10:32pm by sandpark
#29 Apr 25 2016 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Example: Some side objectives-
*Defeating dragons staying above 40% health= +2 Resistance to dragon breaths
*Use a certain skill at a precise time 5 times= +2 Dragon Killer effect
*Defeating all enemies on a floor within a time limit= +10 minute time extension
*Retrieve 8 spheres of wind on floor 2= Obtain Boots of Wind(+2 movement speed)
*Solve the puzzle of the Dire Knight= Obtain Veil of Destiny(Auto-Regen+1 tick)
*Jump across the chaotic mist without falling= Falling damage reduced by 2%
*Follow the spirit without losing sight= Hidden Doors become revealed
*Survive mine field to reach Magma Armor= Ability to walk through fire taking considerably less damage.


Now I'm going to be the jaded one and say I don't have faith in SE to make such a delightfully complex system... not after seeing how the Diadem turned out.

That said, I'm hoping SE learned its lesson, and I'd love to be wrong.
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#30 Apr 25 2016 at 9:11 PM Rating: Good
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Karlina wrote:
xizro wrote:
Another "do the thing until you get the item"

Doesn't that describe pretty much every activity in every game ever?


There IS a reason I focus only on story content. I can't even stand farming for tomes these days, due to the reduced number of dungeons in the the expert roulette. Deep Dungeons isn't going to change that, I think.
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#31 Apr 25 2016 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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There IS a reason I focus only on story content. I can't even stand farming for tomes these days, due to the reduced number of dungeons in the the expert roulette. Deep Dungeons isn't going to change that, I think.


Wait... so 3 dungeons was perfectly fine but 2 is just not good enough? And an infinitely-floored dungeon with its own progression path is also unacceptable?

I'm not a fan of the current roulette system either, but are you serious that 1 extra dungeon in the mix made it ok? Smiley: dubious
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#32 Apr 26 2016 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
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For me I just hope the Deep dungeon does not in any way incorporate tome grinds of any kind. Aside from me really hating the extreme vertical progression/waste of the open world there is one thing that bothers me immensly with this game and that is that doing dungeons is such a mindless bore.

Partly because the dungeons themselves are so predictable and badly designed for the most part, but this is made even worse by the fact that I do the dungeons just to grind them. It has been made so that I actually just have to do dungeons X amount of times. When I do a dungeon and there is a chance item X that I want drops, I am excited, a little bit on edge etc. Every time I kill mob/boss Y that has the drop I want I feel excitement. It is the same in more or less any game I've played, as long as I have a chance to get what I want I stay excited and grinding something gets so much less frustrating. Grinding for tomes takes all that away. I am not saying rng has to be the only way to get things, but I really hope Deep dungeon actually has items drop inside it so that killing bosses and mobs is exciting and not just a chore.

Okay that sounded more negative than I meant it really, I just really hope Deep dungeon is something different. Also I hope itemization within it is more interesting so that we get away from the stat stick equipment, like it sort of makes sense too. If they have floors where you can't cast magic or w/e, maybe some of the items that drop there could have effects related to that type of floor? I don't know, the most fun is having items that does something for your spells/abilities, which would be optimal, but I hope they try to do something other than only 100 HP, 10MP etc items at least.
#33 Apr 26 2016 at 5:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
When I do a dungeon and there is a chance item X that I want drops, I am excited, a little bit on edge etc. Every time I kill mob/boss Y that has the drop I want I feel excitement. It is the same in more or less any game I've played, as long as I have a chance to get what I want I stay excited and grinding something gets so much less frustrating. Grinding for tomes takes all that away.


Agree 100%. You know how many damn UBRS/LBRS/Scholo/Strat runs I did to complete my Shadowcraft set!? They were all fun though.
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#34 Apr 26 2016 at 5:48 AM Rating: Decent
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It seems like they struggle with very basic MMO concepts. The SMN pet thing was very disappointing to read.
#35 Apr 26 2016 at 10:40 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
And why the **** are we reverting back to this stupid conversation in a thread about Deep Dungeons?

Can we PLEASE try to keep this thread on topic? I'd hate to have to lock this too.

Quote:
I guarantee "Deep Dungeons" is also a waste of resources until we see otherwise, because it will be a flat out lie if you sit and tell me people run the new dungeons to run them and not because of, say, the Lore tomes.


You're assuming that I'd disagree with you about why people run the standard dungeons. Just FYI, your assumptions about me are repeatedly wrong, so you may want to change your tactics a bit.

I don't think we have enough information yet to declare "Deep Dungeons" will be a waste of resources. Sounds like you've already made up your mind, though.

Here's a question, Hio... what would it take (other than expanding the party size) for Deep Dungeons to be "satisfying" for you?

Edited, Apr 25th 2016 6:20pm by Thayos


All that does is prove my point that you feel everyone who plays that is "casual/midcore" will run content for their sake and with or without reward despite even SE proving otherwise, so I'll say again, SE didn't create roulettes out of the kindness of their hearts nor did they dedicate SO MUCH time and resources trying to revive PvP if what you say is true, because queue times became abysmal for people starting out or trying to do content after the train left the station ;) I'll leave it at that.

There's already enough info about the initial statement to draw conclusions, unless Yoshida suddenly had a change of heart and changes the formula. For one thing, we know ilvl has no bearing on the content. That immediately tells you the content balance already throws progression out the window. If it has "it's own progression", cool, that means it's something side to do..which side content in this game dies out extremely quickly, no matter how well or poorly designed it is, people largely play for progression, which is why the ONLY reason you have people doing PvP that doesn't normally is because of the Fenrir Pup Minion and the easy Lore tomes for throwing/fixing a fight, which SE responded about because THAT is why The Feast was still popular after the first week. So while there is a PvP community (that feels they're the most important to the game if you read the OF PvP section), PvP did die out fairly quickly despite some people loving it.

We don't know how Deep Dungeons work 100%, but the initial info already has a lot of people worried because the concept sounds cool, so did Diadem, so did Crystal Tower and so did Void Ark and we know how they all turned out - in an unbiased view, the alliance content failed all due the initial delay they never corrected. It succeeds in rewarding items but..that's about it.

What would make it "satisfying" to me? An 8 man progression system that's built around it's own lore and item rewards and actually has a natural progression to the dungeon itself. (Enter > Explore in a non hallway format (still ironic people love this despite giving XIII so much **** for it) > deal with your encounters > fight boss > chance at cool loot > go to next floor > explore > chance to uncover gear you get appraised that can add special stats including new "legacy" stats.)

They said themselves they have the technical means to do "legacy" items with special effects, that's the perfect time to test how it would be received and offer "lost rewards" which is why our current gear has no bearing in the Palace of the Dead/other dungeons, because we're basically entering a different plane of existence due to the magic so while the rewards may have stuff that could enhance your abilities rather than ye olde stat+12 gear and if the difficulty is slightly high, if you want those rewards you'll do it and it gives people more content to cycle in for progression rather than dealing with purely weekly lockout content..but you know there will be a weekly restriction on this if it rewards anything that's suitable for progession. I'd like to be wrong..but it's been 3 years and well, the formula hasn't changed yet despite being an expansion+2 updates deep, when even XI changes SOME core system after a major expansion and it's deep into updates (like Nyzul and Savage were dramatically different progression format.)

So my mind isn't made up on it other than knowing exactly how they already design solo/4man content in this game, especially one stated where ilvl doesn't matter despite the game's itemization being purely built on ilvl? That's a big reason people are worried because that sounds really bad for a game balanced around ilvl.
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#36 Apr 26 2016 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:


Wait... so 3 dungeons was perfectly fine but 2 is just not good enough? And an infinitely-floored dungeon with its own progression path is also unacceptable?

I'm not a fan of the current roulette system either, but are you serious that 1 extra dungeon in the mix made it ok? Smiley: dubious


It actually wasn't, but it was better than now. Given my extremely limited play time (4 hours per week at maximum) I can't really stand repetitive mechanics, which I disliked even when I had more time and played XI.
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#37 Apr 26 2016 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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All that does is prove my point that you feel everyone who plays that is "casual/midcore" will run content for their sake and with or without reward despite even SE proving otherwise, so I'll say again


Your entire post was good, except for that very first paragraph. You're still getting your assumptions about my views completely wrong. You're even wrong about things we actually agree on. But oh well.

Edited, Apr 26th 2016 2:05pm by Thayos
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#38 Apr 26 2016 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
For me I just hope the Deep dungeon does not in any way incorporate tome grinds of any kind. Aside from me really hating the extreme vertical progression/waste of the open world there is one thing that bothers me immensly with this game and that is that doing dungeons is such a mindless bore.

Partly because the dungeons themselves are so predictable and badly designed for the most part, but this is made even worse by the fact that I do the dungeons just to grind them. It has been made so that I actually just have to do dungeons X amount of times. When I do a dungeon and there is a chance item X that I want drops, I am excited, a little bit on edge etc. Every time I kill mob/boss Y that has the drop I want I feel excitement. It is the same in more or less any game I've played, as long as I have a chance to get what I want I stay excited and grinding something gets so much less frustrating. Grinding for tomes takes all that away. I am not saying rng has to be the only way to get things, but I really hope Deep dungeon actually has items drop inside it so that killing bosses and mobs is exciting and not just a chore.

Okay that sounded more negative than I meant it really, I just really hope Deep dungeon is something different. Also I hope itemization within it is more interesting so that we get away from the stat stick equipment, like it sort of makes sense too. If they have floors where you can't cast magic or w/e, maybe some of the items that drop there could have effects related to that type of floor? I don't know, the most fun is having items that does something for your spells/abilities, which would be optimal, but I hope they try to do something other than only 100 HP, 10MP etc items at least.

The dungeons are predictable I agree, it's not like heading into FFXI dungeons were unique everytime but you could get lost and they were pretty open. I do like the chance of items dropping,no, I like drops to fall from enemies, but I like to have control via execution that can increase the likelihood of a drop. Extreme range can die in a fire.

So would earn-able traits qualify for you as altering your spells and abilities or does it have to be a visual aesthetic thing like gear or visible skills? Traits and key item type skills is enough for me if it alters the dynamics of content and skills, which is why I put forward my idea of traits. Even if Yoshi did turn the game 180 and go full on horizontal, the server or how itemization is handled would be strained even further if mostly everything was gear or regular items.
#39 Apr 27 2016 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah like I said, I probably like rng more than most, but for most things I don't think it should be extreme or if it is there could be a system that makes sure you don't go 1/150 on an item which was completely possible in XI. I mean personally I could even do that, but then the game should be made for it too and XIV isn't.

No it does not have to alter visuals at all. I mean I would not mind that I guess, I liked relic weapons getting a special WS in XI, but for the most part I just meant more or less what you are talking about with traits/key items. I mean the biggest problem I see in something like that is if it alters an ability for good when you might want both (depends on how it changes), but I guess that would not be a problem if it is just strictly an upgrade of the ability, but then I don't see it being as fun either. Give and take here I guess, but I would be happy with either system and like I said the visuals is absolutely not something I care about and the time spent on something like that I feel could be used for "better" things.
#40 Apr 27 2016 at 9:39 AM Rating: Default
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Kind of why I always laughed at people who were saying the "stagger" system was bad in XI despite the fact it's sole purpose was to control drop rates and hugely increase them...however it was only the people who hated playing with others that hated it.

Despite despising Abyssea, the introduction of the 'weakness' system was great because all it did was not only include many people (unless you really hated playing with others and bit the bullet and leveled Ninja and Warrior mule to cover everything aside magic) but it was a way to guarantee drop rates, maybe not of the item you WANTED specifically..but something will drop from the enemy.

I don't mind the "chest" system in XIV, but having monsters actually drop gear would definitely help, especially if there's a system..like, you know..1.0, where specific weaponskills and Battle Regimens targeted specific parts to break/maim/cut off which increase/guaranteed drop rates of x item. Kind of like breaking ifrit's horns guaranteed the drop and so on.

Stuff like that.
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#41 Apr 27 2016 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
Kind of why I always laughed at people who were saying the "stagger" system was bad in XI despite the fact it's sole purpose was to control drop rates and hugely increase them...however it was only the people who hated playing with others that hated it.

Despite despising Abyssea, the introduction of the 'weakness' system was great because all it did was not only include many people (unless you really hated playing with others and bit the bullet and leveled Ninja and Warrior mule to cover everything aside magic) but it was a way to guarantee drop rates, maybe not of the item you WANTED specifically..but something will drop from the enemy.

I don't mind the "chest" system in XIV, but having monsters actually drop gear would definitely help, especially if there's a system..like, you know..1.0, where specific weaponskills and Battle Regimens targeted specific parts to break/maim/cut off which increase/guaranteed drop rates of x item. Kind of like breaking ifrit's horns guaranteed the drop and so on.

Stuff like that.

I liked the stagger system when it was 1 to 1 execution, like not taking multiple procs to trigger it. When it worked like that it made battles a little more than just dish out your most powerful **** 24/7. Which is what the concept of skillchains accomplished, they just became less warranted because SE started making monsters more squishy/homogenized and the xp according to difficulty was tuned badly. The LB in XIV makes one focus on exact solo rotations to build faster versus encouraging players to mix/combine powers to sunder enemies.

Here is a blog about skillchains in different mmos and I agree with it on just about everything. The idea of synchronous party maneuvers in an mmo is something that makes an mmo different from a single player rpg and I am saddened Yoshi never brought back some form of it after demolishing the regiments system.

http://eorzeareborn.com/best-in-show-limit-breaks-and-party-maneuvers-in-mmos/

#42 Apr 27 2016 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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The stagger system WAS bad because you could effectively cover most everything with a WAR, NIN, WHM, BLM/BRD, and a BLU. And while I never personally shunned bringing extra bodies, it does translate to needing more mouths to feed when it comes to loot. Thus, more pops and time required if you really wanted to be fair. Woe on the group that was bound to timed pops like Gukumatz, then.

Realistically, it could've been more generalized. From the WS perspective, it could've been hit with Piercing/Slashing/Blunt. From the magical end, it could've been a specific element. Single use probably would've been too easy, sure, but if triggering weakness was something like do "5000 points of Fire damage" then you'd be getting warmer. Weaknesses being ineffective during certain mob behaviors was also questionable. Otherwise, any melee with a fire WS could've contributed toward triggering a weakness proc alongside the mages. There wouldn't have been the EX WS BS, either, where a class otherwise associated with swords couldn't do Swift Blade just because.

VW just kicked proc exclusivity up a notch while SE employed their questionable logic behind individual loot pools with poor drop rates and inability to trade the often-desired loot if you didn't want or need it.
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#43 Apr 27 2016 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I do agree that part of job exclusion, there should have been a way to proc regardless of the job. That bringing more mouths to feed would have all been avoided had they not had a shared loot table. It's one thing to go 1/50 on a specific drop, it is even worse when that 1/50 goes to another player due to luck or group favoring. SE can't be expected to make drops 1/1 or they would constantly be behind trying to develop content but things like that should be worked out and not just have a deal with it mantra.

#44 Apr 27 2016 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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Well, that's why you don't make drops appear in wearable form with crap rates, either. They kinda sorta got it right with the Empyrean papers and other upgrade materials, barring some mob distributions/pop conditions, but for the most part you had some choices in where to grab things. Additionally, there was a high possibility you could work on gear for another class when someone else finished up and no longer needed the excess since RNG gonna RNG. Loosely correlating, it'd be like a piece of Empy gear had a 1 in 20 drop rate, but you were far less likely to go 1/100+ because you were getting "points" toward it. Some fights might drop 0, others could do 4, with the average falling somewhere in between.

Pretty much a different beast than, say, the Kirin days where a RDM would get denied wlegs because the group thought a PLD who wasn't even a main could use it more. Sucked to be the RDM there, speaking from personal experience.
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#45 Apr 27 2016 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Well.yeah in terms of FFXI specifically. Movement speed was superior for PLD kiting compared to giving it to a RDM who..would use it for what, honestly? Even giving it to a blue mage would have been a waste when it benefited PLD more. So even if they weren't main, it would have been a bigger waste on a RDM, since good chance said RDM wasn't going to be kiting any thing any time soon.

If your main PLD was gone, you'd have that alt PLD to fill in and would be able to still kite.
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#46 Apr 27 2016 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
Theonehio wrote:
Well.yeah in terms of FFXI specifically. Movement speed was superior for PLD kiting compared to giving it to a RDM who..would use it for what, honestly? Even giving it to a blue mage would have been a waste when it benefited PLD more. So even if they weren't main, it would have been a bigger waste on a RDM, since good chance said RDM wasn't going to be kiting any thing any time soon.

If your main PLD was gone, you'd have that alt PLD to fill in and would be able to still kite.


You gave them to RDM so you could be like this guy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AwlBgAbWfw

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#47 Apr 27 2016 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
Well.yeah in terms of FFXI specifically. Movement speed was superior for PLD kiting compared to giving it to a RDM who..would use it for what, honestly? Even giving it to a blue mage would have been a waste when it benefited PLD more. So even if they weren't main, it would have been a bigger waste on a RDM, since good chance said RDM wasn't going to be kiting any thing any time soon.

If your main PLD was gone, you'd have that alt PLD to fill in and would be able to still kite.


You gave them to RDM so you could be like this guy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AwlBgAbWfw



Somehow no matter how old that game is, watching him do something completely degenerate never gets old.
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#48 Apr 28 2016 at 3:40 AM Rating: Good
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The big point that frequently gets lost in the shuffle in endgame optimization is that sometimes making someone happy is more important than conditionally making the group more efficient. Morale is a thing, and group responsibility isn't the same from player to player. I used the earlier example because it came from a time in XI where RDM really didn't get a lot out of endgame, but was still a workhorse job few wanted to play. After the Chapeau and Dalmatica, there's a good chance Crimson Cuisses were next on a RDM's wishlist. And their use went beyond kiting. Giving them to someone's tertiary job was basically a slap in the face.

Overall, this is one of those examples of endgame politics some people want to outright avoid. Things like in-game point systems try to mitigate this, sure, but we still have desired drops on our endgame mobs people are gonna fight over. And if you do perpetually PUG, there isn't really some end of the line in sight like you might get in a guild/linkshell priority list because your competition isn't gonna care you lost lot the last time something dropped. And no, the answer isn't as simple as joining a guild/linkshell, then. Especially not in XIV where they still wall server transfers behind cash.

Frankly, I'm not terribly fond of progressing my character(s) at the expense of others, but that's an inevitability when you start entertaining **** poor drop rates, the volatility of attendance over time, and/or high access requirements. Basically, our games have to be careful to not have us walking away angry from people we're supposed to be cooperating with, but it happens precisely because some feel we must pander to the "tested" traditions.
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#49 Apr 28 2016 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Indeed and as much as I loved my RDM, if it allowed us to get more drops overall and increase our efficiency so we can get more drops, isn't that better?

I mean, you're not going to give a Duelist's Chapeau to the DRG with a level 10 RDM just because he's spending 120 DKP on it, you'll still give it to someone actually using a leveled RDM, no? I know DKP was a fair system but there's even limits lol.
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#50 Apr 28 2016 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
I think it just depended what shell you were in. All the shells I was a part of, it was points trumps all, no one cared about necessity. Typically, the people online the most were usually leading and on useful jobs anyways. You had the odd time, joe schmoe was taking something he'd probably never use, but overall, it wasn't common place.

The problem was, there was never any guarantee mr. pld who got w. legs would stick around and use it for the better of the shell. That was always my issue with prioritizing certain jobs/people.
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#51 Apr 28 2016 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I didn't have an issue with the guy who got it specifically, he was simply on his PLD because our other two just wanted to play something else for the day. Overall, it was something like our 3rd or 4th Kirin pop for that run and a return visit from the shell wouldn't have been for a while off. The guy was usually more on SAM or BLM.
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