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#1 Jul 10 2016 at 2:02 AM Rating: Good
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So a friend of mine just started playing the game. He's barely got his sprout gone and is clearing all the stuff that took me years via the unsync option. It just feels so .... wrong watching him plow through everything like that. I feel SO sorry for all the old primals, it just kills immersion to be able to go kick an EXTREME primal's *** or ultima weapon in 2 minutes. Nobody runs anything at minimum item level, that would just be too frustrating. How about maybe capping people at best gear that was there at the time for a moderate challenge so new players get some real skill during their progression instead of suddenly running into OH **** 60 when trials are not unsync butter anymore.

but I guess to hell with that, people MUST be able to farm ponies in a quick manner. I might be wrong about some of this unsync info, since I can't stomach doing it. All those mounts seem empty and meaningless to me as a result. Maybe add additional rewards for running it like it's meant to be? I don't know........
#2 Jul 10 2016 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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The main problem with forced syncing is it runs counter to the general concept of MMOs, and that's to make your character stronger.

The desire to preserve the difficulty of antiquated content, while well-meaning, tends to ignore the reality of how frequently said content is done. This gap translates into longer queue times, but with higher difficulty, also comes a higher chance for failure. One long queue can become multiple long queues becomes someone is unwilling to teach, be patient enough for someone to learn, or if someone is even capable of learning a given encounter's mechanics. String things out enough and people wind up bored and/or frustrated.

When said content is also a wall to later things, it's not exactly good PR to be seeing people talking about XYZ new stuff while you're stuck way back on Q and the people on XYZ don't want to help you because there's honestly nothing in it for them. The possibility to steamroll the content at least makes the temptation to help more tangible, as a newbie not knowing the ropes may not be as catastrophic to the run's success.

This is honestly a lesson SE should've learned with CoP back in XI. To see caps revisited in XIV is a bit of a headscratcher, but I guess it is what it is.
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#3 Jul 10 2016 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
This is honestly a lesson SE should've learned with CoP back in XI. To see caps revisited in XIV is a bit of a headscratcher, but I guess it is what it is.

To be fair, most of the issues with level caps in FFXI were about gear not syncing. Promyvions weren't annoying because you were level 30. They were annoying because you needed a full set of level 30 gear specifically for that one event. They sort of address that when level syncing became a thing but even then 90% of the stats and effects on high level gear were lost so you still needed lower level gear to actually be effective. That's a complete non-issue in FFXIV though.

That said, I mostly agree with the rest of your post. I have no problem with letting old content be done unsynced. Yes, you can kill a 2.x EX primal in 2 minutes. So what? It's not current content and doesn't drop current gear or anything. Being easy now doesn't diminish your previous accomplishments. It just makes it easier to find groups, because really, ponies and the occasional weapon glamour are pretty much the only reasons to even fight a 2.x primal any more.
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#4 Jul 10 2016 at 10:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Level syncing is one of the things about GW2 that drove me nuts. The entire game was essentially level synced, so your level was more or less a ticket to safely travel new parts of the map -- not really anything that made you feel excessively strong. Like, why are these squirrels still attacking me in starter areas?
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#5 Jul 11 2016 at 6:11 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
This is honestly a lesson SE should've learned with CoP back in XI. To see caps revisited in XIV is a bit of a headscratcher, but I guess it is what it is.


Hm? What lesson? CoP was perfectly fine, it was just people whining about having to carry level cap appropriate gear before the gear sync was introduced. I assure you people didnt praise CoP after they got rid of the level caps, it was still praised as one of the best expansions and FF stories even during its capped days. You personally disliked it, but capping is "revisited" in XIV because they don't want to introduce better systems (literally, read any post E3 Interview where they said it's too risky to change the formula and they rather stick with what's working for them.)

That said, the reward for doing it sync'd is guaranteed drops on certain items (music scrolls) but no one wants to do outdated content like that simply because, Yoshi wants us to move past content, but then he forces us back into content he wants us moved past...then he forces us out of the content by making an alternate path that is easier...but then forces us back into the older content for new content system (relic)...that is far more of a headscratcher than level syncing being a thing.
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#6 Jul 11 2016 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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klooste8 wrote:
So a friend of mine just started playing the game. He's barely got his sprout gone and is clearing all the stuff that took me years via the unsync option. It just feels so .... wrong watching him plow through everything like that. I feel SO sorry for all the old primals, it just kills immersion to be able to go kick an EXTREME primal's *** or ultima weapon in 2 minutes. Nobody runs anything at minimum item level, that would just be too frustrating. How about maybe capping people at best gear that was there at the time for a moderate challenge so new players get some real skill during their progression instead of suddenly running into OH **** 60 when trials are not unsync butter anymore.

but I guess to **** with that, people MUST be able to farm ponies in a quick manner. I might be wrong about some of this unsync info, since I can't stomach doing it. All those mounts seem empty and meaningless to me as a result. Maybe add additional rewards for running it like it's meant to be? I don't know........


Actually, quite a few FCs do minimum item level challenges as part of recruitment to their high-end raiding (because high-end raiding is pretty much a minimum item level challenge in itself; you can't just brute force your way past the mechanics) or just to have something interesting to stream on Twitch.

But I don't have a problem with the option for old content to be unsynced. It's better than having it all languish unused, and it really only benefits someone farming for drops. It's not my thing, but I wouldn't deny someone who loves grinding for such things.
#7 Jul 11 2016 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Despite my above comment, I don't have a problem with the level syncing in this game.

You don't need to carry extra gear sets, and the syncing is generous enough that you still crush through lower-level dungeons at a pretty good clip. I got Wanderer's Palace in the roulette the other day and we just demolished it (which we should, seeing as how we were all high-iLevel 60 players). So I don't feel like my power level is being completely negated. At the same time, the sync keeps things balanced so that we're not melting bosses in a matter of seconds.

Dungeon grinding just isn't the place where people should look to be challenged. Unfortunately, this is where we get back to the game's glaring weakness of not really having accessible challenging content for most casual/midcore players. Over time, hopefully content like Deep Dungeons can fill this void. Developers have said it will be easy at first, but that eventually descending to the furthest floors will take more than a casual effort. And the fact that system has a unique progression system (but with weapon rewards that are useful outside of Deep Dungeons) should keep it just as relevant as anything else.
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#8 Jul 11 2016 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
Seriha wrote:
This is honestly a lesson SE should've learned with CoP back in XI. To see caps revisited in XIV is a bit of a headscratcher, but I guess it is what it is.

To be fair, most of the issues with level caps in FFXI were about gear not syncing. Promyvions weren't annoying because you were level 30. They were annoying because you needed a full set of level 30 gear specifically for that one event. They sort of address that when level syncing became a thing but even then 90% of the stats and effects on high level gear were lost so you still needed lower level gear to actually be effective. That's a complete non-issue in FFXIV though.

Some jobs change pretty dramatically as you level, though. It's mainly why I didn't RDM through CoP despite it being my main. For melee, I'm sure losing their level 60+ WS for content was also a downer, among other abilities. In the end, it's just the game saying, "We're making you weaker because we want to!" Some tried to rationalize it that it'd bring higher people to lower, but that's not really how it seemed to play out in majority. You either static grouped or enjoyed shouting for a long time hoping the right people wanted to help out. Gear was an inconvenience, sure, but I'd say manpower reqs ranked higher in the hassle column.
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#9 Jul 11 2016 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
You either static grouped or enjoyed shouting for a long time hoping the right people wanted to help out. Gear was an inconvenience, sure, but I'd say manpower reqs ranked higher in the hassle column.

That was true of everything in FFXI. If you wanted to do a rank/zilart/ToAU/etc mission you shouted for it too. Level cap gear made CoP worse in that respect though. The people were more likely to answer a ZM shout because they didn't need to buy or mule gear for it.
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75 Rabbit/75 Sheep/75 Coeurl/75 Eft/75 Raptor/75 Hippogryph/75 Puk
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat

Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
#10 Jul 11 2016 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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That was true of everything in FFXI. If you wanted to do a rank/zilart/ToAU/etc mission you shouted for it too. Level cap gear made CoP worse in that respect though. The people were more likely to answer a ZM shout because they didn't need to buy or mule gear for it.


Ironically the level capping made me like CoP MORE because I could do it without having to be level 75 in omgwtfbbq gear.
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#11 Jul 11 2016 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Ironically the level capping made me like CoP MORE because I could do it without having to be level 75 in omgwtfbbq gear.

IIRC that was the entire point of the level caps. The level caps were there to make the content accessible, but still challenging to people of all levels. You could easily overpower the Shadowlord by just throwing a few 75s at it. Not so for a promyvion.
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75 Rabbit/75 Sheep/75 Coeurl/75 Eft/75 Raptor/75 Hippogryph/75 Puk
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat

Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
#12 Jul 11 2016 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
My linkshell back in FFXI did the promy ENM runs all the time BECAUSE of the level sync. That made it really easy for us to form parties with lower-level members who couldn't do other things. So, yes, level syncing does have value. That's actually a big reason why I'm excited for Deep Dungeons... finally, I'll have a reason to play as jobs that I otherwise wouldn't ever use.
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#13 Jul 11 2016 at 7:06 PM Rating: Good
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I may resub to try out Deep Dungeons.. it's pretty much the only thing in this patch cycle I'm interested in.

Seekers of Adoulin has brickwalled my FFXI adventures for now (apparently I need to spend 80 daily tokens on dailies... generating 3 a day... dear god). And WoW keeps threatening to release pre-expansion stuff and keeps not doing it. **** or get off the pot, WoW!.
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#14 Jul 11 2016 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
I've been dabbling in FFXI still, and just recently decided to start working on the Adoulin missions and potentially wrap things up for good... and while the game still has its charm, good god is it tedious.
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#15 Jul 11 2016 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Those Adoulin dailies were completely bonkers and it's where I stopped playing until Rhapsodies started.
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#16 Jul 11 2016 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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It's like... I got annoyed with Aht Urghan constantly making me wait for JP midnight to do things for no real reason..... that was better.
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#17 Jul 11 2016 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not talking about progression instances, even though the main story quests don't need to be item level pwnt as badly as they are. How about just keeping extreme stuff...... well.... EXTREME. those instances are not needed for normal progression and don't hold anyone back. While taking away unsync for extreme encounters, give old extreme stuff updated rewards such as maybe a higher level accessory for extreme ultima weapon, titan, garuda, ect. for completing at the intended level.

like a level 60 reward in addition to the level 50 (now garbage) reward. something neat that newer players can feel good about having for completing something we all pained so much for years ago. Would also produce more actually skilled players, not those item lvl 220 + players that haven't figured out how to avoid aoe yet.

Edited, Jul 12th 2016 1:38am by klooste8

Edited, Jul 12th 2016 1:46am by klooste8
#18 Jul 12 2016 at 12:02 AM Rating: Good
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I'm no Nidgog ex expert, but doing Levi extreme back in the day taught me to look for nidhog's shadow like levi's water spout. to avoid getting killed in the first phase
#19 Jul 12 2016 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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klooste8 wrote:
I'm not talking about progression instances, even though the main story quests don't need to be item level pwnt as badly as they are. How about just keeping extreme stuff...... well.... EXTREME. those instances are not needed for normal progression and don't hold anyone back. While taking away unsync for extreme encounters, give old extreme stuff updated rewards such as maybe a higher level accessory for extreme ultima weapon, titan, garuda, ect. for completing at the intended level.

like a level 60 reward in addition to the level 50 (now garbage) reward. something neat that newer players can feel good about having for completing something we all pained so much for years ago. Would also produce more actually skilled players, not those item lvl 220 + players that haven't figured out how to avoid aoe yet.

Edited, Jul 12th 2016 1:38am by klooste8

Edited, Jul 12th 2016 1:46am by klooste8


I think it's ok for old content to stay old rather than getting constantly updated as the game moves on. Level 50 content is level 50.. the players move on with the game and it stays level 50. I think that's ok. It's important for people to have some sense of becoming more powerful as they progress through the game. Having to constantly update older fights so they're a challenge to max level players at max level would also mean that every expansion has to have more and more work put into it to keep an ever-growing list of fights up to date.

And there are still level 50 fights that are hard to do at level 60 because of their mechanics.
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#20 Jul 12 2016 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
I think it's ok for old content to stay old rather than getting constantly updated as the game moves on. Level 50 content is level 50.. the players move on with the game and it stays level 50. I think that's ok. It's important for people to have some sense of becoming more powerful as they progress through the game. Having to constantly update older fights so they're a challenge to max level players at max level would also mean that every expansion has to have more and more work put into it to keep an ever-growing list of fights up to date.

And there are still level 50 fights that are hard to do at level 60 because of their mechanics.


And this is the biggest problem I have with the way Yoshi feels we "want": to do content.

No, I do not want to touch the same god damn 2013-2014 dungeon set for the 4th time for a new more powerful weapon. I don't care if you found "Aetherial Crystal of Smiting" all of a sudden, how about make that come from ...new level 60 content designed around the relic quest? Why are you "suddenly" finding items in a dungeon we ran 2-3 times prior and somehow missed? >.>

That aside though, that's why I enjoyed CoP regardless of the hate for level caps, because as you progressed the story and content base it had a sense of you getting stronger naturally, not because you're the warrior of light. I don't mind the setup of XIV's content in concept since it made FAR more sense in 1.x, but there's no reason to have us revisiting content they obsoleted in the name of vertical progression for new content. Adding birds to primals we have no need to fight is kind of silly, they could have added instanced arenas where we fight them and get their drop. Yoshi loves instances for the XIV content and world, so it's actually so easy to do.

Just like people think them making "Savage content for so few" is a waste of resources when in reality, Savage is the FIRST version created, so they could easily reuse instances for some side activities, they did it for the first relic. So yeah, while unsyncing blows content away, we technically shouldn't even be touching the older stuff at this point in the game if you're caught up.
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#21 Jul 13 2016 at 2:37 AM Rating: Good
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we technically shouldn't even be touching the older stuff at this point in the game if you're caught up.

then I guess SE should just erase old challenges. Get rid of extreme titan garuda and ifrit, ***** all that content and work the developers developed for players old and new. Especially since it's pointless even for fresh level 50s to go get Item level 90 accessories from ultima weapon when you can buy 115 from the ah for 10k.

you don't have to...... BUT if you decide to go back and touch the old EXTREME content..... the way in was meant to be touched (not unsync) then maybe perhaps you should get something for doing it. nothing ground breaking but something usable in current content. I'm not trying to bring us back to mandatory ff11 expansion stuff, just trying to make doing old stuff a new and completely OPTIONAL avenue for getting gear and mounts that say "hey, I did this the darklight way." as opposed to "hey, I pwnt this old **** about 90 times with way overpowered gear till I finally got muh pony"

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Having to constantly update older fights so they're a challenge to max level players at max level would also mean that every expansion has to have more and more work put into it to keep an ever-growing list of fights up to date.


they don't have to "update" anything but rewards for doing something synced at level friggin 50. Don't update the fight at all..... "downdate it", so our new players have the opportunity to have as much fun as old players did with this content. I'm not prescribing a level 60 version of titan ex. The only "update" I want is uh..... totally no lag that throws me off the edge......

Edited, Jul 13th 2016 4:47am by klooste8
#22 Jul 13 2016 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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they don't have to "update" anything but rewards for doing something synced at level friggin 50.


Um.. that's an update.

Also it creates a situation where you'd potentially have level 50 fights offering quality gear at level 90 several years down the line.

How badly do you want to be farming Titan EX every expansion for the next six years? Because that doesn't seem appealing to me.
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#23 Jul 13 2016 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, considering how apatetic the playerbase is nowadays (I don't even see anyone caring about Nidhogg), maybe it's time for Yoshida and team to look into some way to motivate people.
#24 Jul 13 2016 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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they don't have to "update" anything but rewards for doing something synced at level friggin 50.


Um.. that's an update.

Also it creates a situation where you'd potentially have level 50 fights offering quality gear at level 90 several years down the line.

How badly do you want to be farming Titan EX every expansion for the next six years? Because that doesn't seem appealing to me.


I mean, look at the relic quest. Do you really think they wouldn't find someway to do this regardless?
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#25 Jul 13 2016 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly, considering how apatetic the playerbase is nowadays (I don't even see anyone caring about Nidhogg), maybe it's time for Yoshida and team to look into some way to motivate people.


This goes back to the discussion we've been having in this forum for months.

It's not that people don't care about the content, it's that it's just not accessible to so many players. Most of XIV's endgame content so far has been heavily scripted, mechanic-heavy content that requires not just memorization, but seven other people who are on the same page. Without that, you can't even get the opportunity to memorize later stages of fights.

You can only do so much to motivate people when there's very little payoff to simply trying. You could make Nidhogg drop full i250 gear sets, and it wouldn't really matter. The overall problem here isn't one of motivation, but of logistics. People generally don't enjoy wasting time. You can give people long, boring grinds like the relic quests, and they'll do it because there's measurable progress toward a completely attainable goal. But you'll never convince people that jumping into pickup groups for content that's laden with several phases of fiercely punishing mechanics is a wise use of their time, because there's very little chance of them ever succeeding. People generally want to be in control of their own destinies.

Fortunately, we're about to get Deep Dungeons, and soon after we'll get a revamped Diadem. The development team seems to be realizing the need for content for non-hardcore players, and that's a great thing. I'm excited to see what kind of new content might be added when 4.0 rolls in.


Edited, Jul 13th 2016 9:53am by Thayos
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#26 Jul 13 2016 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Quite honestly and this does go back towards Thordan EX days - they already create content for "non-hardcore players", the problem is, as seen with Weeping City with...well, it's not about hardcore/midcore/casual, it's about player skill and willingness to actually want to be good at your job/the content. Remember, the content designed "for hardcore players" is the content the team designs FIRST, then REDESIGNS (which is actually taking more time) for the more casual orient crowd.

The game sadly doesn't create a progression of "get gud" in order to tackle even the easy "hard" content. Much like Thordan and Sephirot Ex, it's universally accepted that Nidhogg Ex is painfully easy...disappointingly easy, it's just "pay attention to mechanics". There's a less DPS check for Nidhogg Ex than there is Sephirot Ex, something released ages ago, which is a problem on its own for a different topic because a big downer is the fact anything you "work hard for" is worthless very soon after. So why do anything that takes an iota of skill? Why not just wait for the catchup patches and do easy content for the halfsteps?

Similar to FFXI - Your progression goes from basic quests to NMs to Rank missions which gradually involves more and more people (in the early days) to actual content systems like Dynamis, Limbus, Nyzul and so on and requires you to actually know what the hell is going on in the game mechanically and that not everything can be brute forced. In XIV, you just kill everything with Fire, including the LORD OF THE INFERNO.
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