Hello everyone!
Like most of you know by now lol I am gay and recently proposed to my boyfriend (Last night). We really wanted to have an official game wedding but it seems we will just have to do an unofficial one because it is "illegal" to have a same sex marriage. I don't understand their reasoning because in several countries now they allow same sex marriages so why don't they allow it on the game? I asked a Game Master and they sad because they want to stick to Japanese traditions of weddings with a man and a women though aren't games an escape from real life? A means to get away from reality and to have fun? So why can't homosexual couples have fun too and get married? And if they say it will increase the rating of the game, it wouldn't because if you look at games such as Fable and The Sims 2 the ratings stay at Teen. Well these are my thought tell me what you think, and if you are in favour please send in some feedback to SE and try and get SE to consider gay marriages as a possibility. Thank you for listening to my ranking. And yes I know some of you will disagree with the things I say, but that's just my beliefs. Thanks once again!
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Hmm, I can understand why they would want things to stay traditional, but I guess it isn't exactly fair, to you guys.
I remember watching a vid of a Gay wedding http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&p=240641#240641 (it is humour tho) Anyways, Gratz and GL on your wedding :p
I remember watching a vid of a Gay wedding http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&p=240641#240641 (it is humour tho) Anyways, Gratz and GL on your wedding :p
15 posts
I could be wrong on this but I think Japan is more of conservative counrty maybe traditional is better word. That why I don't think you'll see gay wedding in this game. All the best to you anyways.
Heh, for ***** and giggles I asked.
"Not currently supported, forwarded to the dev staff."
"Not currently supported, forwarded to the dev staff."
Okay, born-again Christian in the house. ^_~
My views on RL marriages aside, I think same-gender marriages in FFXI should be acceptable. I mean, as long as they're going to give players the ability to get married, then why not go the whole hog and just allow any couple to do it? Vanadiel isn't the traditional world we know and have accepted. In the RL there are real, legitimate reasons for why same-sex marriages are not accepted. But in a game based in an entirely different world, where players can choose their genders and their orientation upon whims, how can they deny a man and a woman, both Mithran characters, to not wed? Seems a little silly to me. I guess they were just trying for a more traditional approach to marriage in-game for a more realistic feel. I don't know. In any case, unless there are some good in-game reasons for why same-gender marriages are unacceptable, I don't agree with the concept.
Just a side-note, I have never met anyone in-game that has been married. o_O
My views on RL marriages aside, I think same-gender marriages in FFXI should be acceptable. I mean, as long as they're going to give players the ability to get married, then why not go the whole hog and just allow any couple to do it? Vanadiel isn't the traditional world we know and have accepted. In the RL there are real, legitimate reasons for why same-sex marriages are not accepted. But in a game based in an entirely different world, where players can choose their genders and their orientation upon whims, how can they deny a man and a woman, both Mithran characters, to not wed? Seems a little silly to me. I guess they were just trying for a more traditional approach to marriage in-game for a more realistic feel. I don't know. In any case, unless there are some good in-game reasons for why same-gender marriages are unacceptable, I don't agree with the concept.
Just a side-note, I have never met anyone in-game that has been married. o_O
we aint **** either, so more power to ya buddy boy! SE can suck my shoe
Psylight wrote:
But in a game based in an entirely different world, where players can choose their genders and their orientation upon whims, how can they deny a man and a woman, both Mithran characters, to not wed? Seems a little silly to me. I guess they were just trying for a more traditional approach to marriage in-game for a more realistic feel. I don't know.
As someone in a situation like this I whole-heartedly agree. I and my RL wife play the game together. She is a female hume, I am a Mithra. I chose Mithra simply because I thought a) they were something different than the human, elvan, halfling (er taru) traditional roleplaying races, b) they came from Windurst, which I had decided was the realm I wanted to play, and c) I wanted to play RNG, NIN, SAM, etc and they appeared to be well suited for these jobs. If there had been a male option for Mithra I would have likely chosen it, but there was not. Not being afraid of playing a female character (I have played one before in AD&D settings) I just went with it.
This was of course before the marriage option. I was at first thrilled that I might be able to do something this cool with my RL wife in game. Later, when I discovered I could not, I was very disappointed and confused. I mean, it's not like theres any explicit or even implicit things that occur as a result of an in-game marriage. Essentially you get a ceremony and a ring. What would really be the harm in allowing Tianna and I to do this? I just don't see it. Ah well ; ;
Yeah same as Psylight, born again Christian here. This is gonna rub some people wrong but here are my thoughts...
In FFXI there is a homosexual population, but I'm willing to bet that most of the population is not. That being said I dont think SE wants to be responsible for have the gay population reflecting their beliefs on the smaller kids in the game(age 5-18 or so). You may not think of it as a big deal but if smaller kids are raised around a homosexual setting they will reflect what they see, therefore pissing their straight parents/guardians off for in turn "turning their child gay." Now if such were to happen, the parents could possibly sue SE and cause a big ruckus about it.
Not saying that gay is wrong(which I beleive but I don't force my opinions on other people) but other people who grew up in a normal society may not agree with the beliefs and therefore blame the game.
In FFXI there is a homosexual population, but I'm willing to bet that most of the population is not. That being said I dont think SE wants to be responsible for have the gay population reflecting their beliefs on the smaller kids in the game(age 5-18 or so). You may not think of it as a big deal but if smaller kids are raised around a homosexual setting they will reflect what they see, therefore pissing their straight parents/guardians off for in turn "turning their child gay." Now if such were to happen, the parents could possibly sue SE and cause a big ruckus about it.
Not saying that gay is wrong(which I beleive but I don't force my opinions on other people) but other people who grew up in a normal society may not agree with the beliefs and therefore blame the game.
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You may not think of it as a big deal but if smaller kids are raised around a homosexual setting they will reflect what they see, therefore pissing their straight parents/guardians off for in turn "turning their child gay." Now if such were to happen, the parents could possibly sue SE and cause a big ruckus about it
Touchy touchy issue here. SE could be sued for just about anything, but I do agree with the above statement. I live in a liberal society, very diverse, and extremely tolerant with one another. However I know other areas of the country are not, and I won't get into detail about that.
Homosexuality is a hot topic today and for SE to even touch upon it is playing with fire. Until there's more understanding and tolerance for homosexuality nothing's going to happen. There are people, unfortunately, that are homophobes. So until they start to realize that gays do exist and are everyday people, they'll be treated with inequality. Sad fact but true. Homophobes, get over it. Gay is not a disease, it's not a plague. It's probably just as natural as your hair color.
I'm all up for freedom of beliefs.
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Not saying that gay is wrong(which I beleive but I don't force my opinions on other people) but other people who grew up in a normal society may not agree with the beliefs and therefore blame the game.
Though you are very polite, in sense that is what you're saying by suggesting that gay people do not belong in normal society. But I guess my comment takes us away from the issue at hand..
I just think it interesting (and perhaps tragic) the way that this (final) fantasy world can't seem to get away from reflecting the real world so much. I mean, we have monopolies (gil farmers, though instead of the fat cats on wall street are replaced by second and third world countries) and now we have state (~SE) enforced homophobia (which is how I view what other people call by other names).
I also think it's funny that a consequence of this restriction is that I've heard Man-thras happy to get marriage proposals from other guys (playing male characters). In a sense, SE is accidentally making gay marriage possible for all those impressionable kids mentioned in other posts. (but ******** over the many couples who can't marry, even though guy and gal IRL). O.o! Maybe SE has a secret Gay agenda!
edit for sarcasm
Edited, Wed Feb 16 11:57:16 2005 by enkydu
Scholar
22 posts
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In FFXI there is a homosexual population, but I'm willing to bet that most of the population is not.
Yes there are definately fewer homosexuals then there are stragith people though statistically the gay population makes up 10% of the entire population. So if you were to apply this to the game (I heard they have 200k handles from an GM) there are 20k gay people playing which means that 10k couples won't be able to get married if they wanted to.
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just a side-note, I have never met anyone in-game that has been married. o_O
<---Married ingame. :p
I don't care about homosexuals. I mean, really, what is the big deal? They've been around since who knows when, can't we just, i don't know, deal with the differences? There's such a stigma about it, for no real reason.
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You may not think of it as a big deal but if smaller kids are raised around a homosexual setting they will reflect what they see, therefore pissing their straight parents/guardians off for in turn "turning their child gay." Now if such were to happen, the parents could possibly sue SE and cause a big ruckus about it.
Umm...where did you learn THAT? You cannot "turn gay" by being around gay people. I'm not gay, I've had A LOT of gay friends. Even when I was little, one of my friends was gay. I really don't see why gay people can't marry, ingame or out of game. Once marriage became a lawful instition, it stopped being sacred.
Didn't our forfathers write, "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creater with certain unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?"
Edited, Wed Feb 16 18:33:34 2005 by carolisrude
15 posts
I really don't understand this homophobic facination with keeping others not like you down. My LS's leader is gay and is as kind a person as any I know. There is no reason to say what you can and cannot do ingame just because tradition of some -RL- culture hasn't done it before. This insn't RL this is a game, a game of fantasy, imagination, and fun. What harm is there in giving two men or two women the right to give thier hands in marage inside this game? All this really is, is someone with power exerting it over someone without. I for one am outraged and totally discusted with SE.
On a side note: {Congratulations} Falke!
/emote gives Falke a china set gravy boat for a wedding present =D
Naga
On a side note: {Congratulations} Falke!
/emote gives Falke a china set gravy boat for a wedding present =D
Naga
Don't worry about it.
Official weddings = Six months wait and some cheesey organ music.
Unofficial weddings = Getting hitched on the beautiful island in Bibiki bay (or whatever other location you two like - maybe somewhere that means a lot to you?)
*Quietly ignores the whole gay marriage debate*
I for one am very pleased you two found happiness in Vana'diel, may it last forever!
*Tings a fork against his glass and hops up onto the table*
To the happy couple!
*Much merriment ensues, and they all live happily every after until the end of their days*
Official weddings = Six months wait and some cheesey organ music.
Unofficial weddings = Getting hitched on the beautiful island in Bibiki bay (or whatever other location you two like - maybe somewhere that means a lot to you?)
*Quietly ignores the whole gay marriage debate*
I for one am very pleased you two found happiness in Vana'diel, may it last forever!
*Tings a fork against his glass and hops up onto the table*
To the happy couple!
*Much merriment ensues, and they all live happily every after until the end of their days*
Good call, Ryotu. This conversation borders on a knife-edge between in-game topic and RL-debate. The topic at hand is highly controversial, with no "answer" exactly.
It's probably best just to drop the subject and work out difference elsewhere, we don't want this becoming a flame-war of "not fair"s and "your opinion is wrong"s.
If I was going to get married in the game somewhere, I think I'd have to say... get married in the Gardens at the Chateau in San d'Oria, then have a small honeymoon on the southern beaches of Buburimu, where we can relax and sunbathe and watch the beautiful sunsets. Bliss. ^_^
It's probably best just to drop the subject and work out difference elsewhere, we don't want this becoming a flame-war of "not fair"s and "your opinion is wrong"s.
If I was going to get married in the game somewhere, I think I'd have to say... get married in the Gardens at the Chateau in San d'Oria, then have a small honeymoon on the southern beaches of Buburimu, where we can relax and sunbathe and watch the beautiful sunsets. Bliss. ^_^
Scholar
22 posts
Well thanks for your guys support! ^^ And we are planning on getting married on the boat in Carpenters' Landing and then throwing a party in Bibiki Bay! (Our minister is Jersey! Woohoo!) So I hope it will be fun but I do hope SE will change their stupid rules on same sex marriage for the other gay couples out there! ^^
12 posts
Congratz, Falke. I wish you and yours the very best. ^^
Where there are no trails, make them.
Where there are no trails, make them.
yay congrats Mr. Falke, hope you find much happiness.
Because it doesn't fit in the context of the game. San d'Oria, Bastok, and Windurst supporting gay marriage would make no sense.
San d'Oria and Windurst are theocracies and Bastok is intolerant towards those who aren't normal (Galka for example).
San d'Oria and Windurst are theocracies and Bastok is intolerant towards those who aren't normal (Galka for example).
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Because it doesn't fit in the context of the game. San d'Oria, Bastok, and Windurst supporting gay marriage would make no sense.
San d'Oria and Windurst are theocracies and Bastok is intolerant towards those who aren't normal (Galka for example).
San d'Oria and Windurst are theocracies and Bastok is intolerant towards those who aren't normal (Galka for example).
I wouldn't really describe San d'Oria as a theorcracy, it has a king, so surely it's a monarchy? Although the priest chap does seem to have quite a lot of influence.
Windurst prehaps could be as the Star Sybil is supposed to be a representation of Altana. But just because Christianity doesn't like homosexuallity doesn't mean Altana shares that belief, to me she seems like a rather nice girl who would celebrate love in all the forms it takes..
As for Bastok being intolerant, I'm not so sure - Bastok itself was formed by both the Galka and Humes, it's just the Humes that are mean to Galka, not the state as a whole. As for your implication that homosexuals aren't "normal".. no comment.
Talking to the president of Bastok during the Ballista lisence quest he was very keen to press how much freedom his people have (he was trying to convince me to defect!), to me it seems quite likely this freedom would be expressed by allowing anyone to marry anyone else they feel like.
To me banning gay weddings in San d'Oria would make sense though; it seems to fit with the whole arrogant Elvaan thing they have going on there.
As for Windurst, those Tarutaru are so full of love and happiness, how could they ever pass a law banning marriages?!
P.S. Post lots of screenshots of the happy day!
Lets not forgot, vana'diel is not the real world. Everything you can do had to be written into the program. It's not that gay weddings have been banned... They just werent written in by the guy who wrote that part of the program. Allowing gay weddings would require rewriting that part of the software. And maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's probably better things to be working on. I'm not trying to say that gay weddings arent important. Just that it's only a game, and because of that I think most people would prefer to see final fantasy related stuff worked on rather than the wedding system. Maybe somewhere down the line when everyone is satisfied that the jobs are all balanced and the game is just right they'll work on it. I wouldnt hold my breath if I was you. Just my 2gil worth.
Scholar
22 posts
I will try to remember to get some screens lol
San d'Oria is a theocracy in my opinion because all of the rules derive from religion, the divine right of kings is established, and the church has a lot of authority. It's really more of a theocratic monarchy.
San d'Orians are incredibly xenophobic. As a foreigner in San d'Oria you suffer all kinds of insults. This tends to imply that anyone who strays from the norm in San d'Oria is met with disapproval (aka homosexuals). Sure, there's nothing explicitly in the game that condemns homosexuals from a San d'Orian point of view, but just about every monotheistic religion on the planet has a rule against homosexuality. So it's safe to assume that this religion does too?
Bastok's president is far more liberal and progressive than the rest of Bastok for one. And even though he is, he's incredibly racist against Galka, looks down on them, and constantly patronizes/insults his body guard (who is a Galka). If you think Bastok is about freedom, clearly you haven't done the Bastok missions enough to know what Bastok is really about.
Homosexuality would be absolutely damned among the Mithra males. They may look kinder upon Lesbians however, but gay males would not be tolerated (because there aren't that many Mithran Males, and if some of them are gay, it damages their society as a whole).
And given the childish nature of the Taru Taru, I doubt they even discuss such things as sexual morality. More than likely, homosexuality is a non-issue in Windurst. Isn't seen or heard of, and so rules agaisnt it aren't necessary.
Consider the developmental level of Vana'diel. Do you honestly think that they would be pro-homosexuality? It makes no sense that they would.
San d'Orians are incredibly xenophobic. As a foreigner in San d'Oria you suffer all kinds of insults. This tends to imply that anyone who strays from the norm in San d'Oria is met with disapproval (aka homosexuals). Sure, there's nothing explicitly in the game that condemns homosexuals from a San d'Orian point of view, but just about every monotheistic religion on the planet has a rule against homosexuality. So it's safe to assume that this religion does too?
Bastok's president is far more liberal and progressive than the rest of Bastok for one. And even though he is, he's incredibly racist against Galka, looks down on them, and constantly patronizes/insults his body guard (who is a Galka). If you think Bastok is about freedom, clearly you haven't done the Bastok missions enough to know what Bastok is really about.
Homosexuality would be absolutely damned among the Mithra males. They may look kinder upon Lesbians however, but gay males would not be tolerated (because there aren't that many Mithran Males, and if some of them are gay, it damages their society as a whole).
And given the childish nature of the Taru Taru, I doubt they even discuss such things as sexual morality. More than likely, homosexuality is a non-issue in Windurst. Isn't seen or heard of, and so rules agaisnt it aren't necessary.
Consider the developmental level of Vana'diel. Do you honestly think that they would be pro-homosexuality? It makes no sense that they would.
Drat! Ayvaen beat me to saying most of what I was going to. ^_^;;
Belief in Altana's teachings state nothing against homosexuality, at least from what I know in the game, it's probably not a topic S-E are in any hurry to touch on. However, as Ayvaen said, most religions in Vana'diel are miscontrued representations of real religions. It's not stretching the imagination to assume that Altana's "rules" are based on a real religion, or many religions. As such, majority would oppose the acceptance of gay marriage.
The original post says:
"I don't understand their reasoning because in several countries now they allow same sex marriages so why don't they allow it on the game?"
They key word here is "several". Not most, or all. S-E has to cater to the majority, that's the smart bet. It's best to please the crowd than to please the minority. And unfortunately, with an on/off situation like this, that's really on of the only things they can do. It's either, Allow gay marriage, or don't allow gay marriage. There's very little grey area. Japan doesn't allow it, for one. And seeing as they're the ones who developed the game, it's really their call.
P.S. Ayvaen's right about Bastok, Even in the early missions the Bastokan President is very clear about his feelings towards the Galka, and while he is a highly-motivated driving force, it's obvious the future he's planning for Bastok isn't necessarily what the minority are looking forward to.
Belief in Altana's teachings state nothing against homosexuality, at least from what I know in the game, it's probably not a topic S-E are in any hurry to touch on. However, as Ayvaen said, most religions in Vana'diel are miscontrued representations of real religions. It's not stretching the imagination to assume that Altana's "rules" are based on a real religion, or many religions. As such, majority would oppose the acceptance of gay marriage.
The original post says:
"I don't understand their reasoning because in several countries now they allow same sex marriages so why don't they allow it on the game?"
They key word here is "several". Not most, or all. S-E has to cater to the majority, that's the smart bet. It's best to please the crowd than to please the minority. And unfortunately, with an on/off situation like this, that's really on of the only things they can do. It's either, Allow gay marriage, or don't allow gay marriage. There's very little grey area. Japan doesn't allow it, for one. And seeing as they're the ones who developed the game, it's really their call.
P.S. Ayvaen's right about Bastok, Even in the early missions the Bastokan President is very clear about his feelings towards the Galka, and while he is a highly-motivated driving force, it's obvious the future he's planning for Bastok isn't necessarily what the minority are looking forward to.
Quote:
Yeah same as Psylight, born again Christian here. This is gonna rub some people wrong but here are my thoughts...
In FFXI there is a homosexual population, but I'm willing to bet that most of the population is not. That being said I dont think SE wants to be responsible for have the gay population reflecting their beliefs on the smaller kids in the game(age 5-18 or so). You may not think of it as a big deal but if smaller kids are raised around a homosexual setting they will reflect what they see, therefore pissing their straight parents/guardians off for in turn "turning their child gay." Now if such were to happen, the parents could possibly sue SE and cause a big ruckus about it.
Not saying that gay is wrong(which I beleive but I don't force my opinions on other people) but other people who grew up in a normal society may not agree with the beliefs and therefore blame the game.
In FFXI there is a homosexual population, but I'm willing to bet that most of the population is not. That being said I dont think SE wants to be responsible for have the gay population reflecting their beliefs on the smaller kids in the game(age 5-18 or so). You may not think of it as a big deal but if smaller kids are raised around a homosexual setting they will reflect what they see, therefore pissing their straight parents/guardians off for in turn "turning their child gay." Now if such were to happen, the parents could possibly sue SE and cause a big ruckus about it.
Not saying that gay is wrong(which I beleive but I don't force my opinions on other people) but other people who grew up in a normal society may not agree with the beliefs and therefore blame the game.
I'm Kye of the Leviathan server and I am appalled at your remark. I didn't even bother reading the rest of the comments that are like yours so I'll just address this in response to your remark.
1.) Being turned gay? I don't think that is possible. I highly doubt a person of homosexual preference will turn "stright" if he is surrounded with nothing but "straight" people.
2.) Reflecting their beliefs to corrupt our youth? You honestly make me sick. Are you honestly trying to say that a less accepting and a more discriminative world is a better thing?? You my friend, are the epitome of what is wrong with our society.
3.) Normal society? Who the hell (excuse my language) are you to say what is normal? You are not some upper being, you do not decide what is normal.
4.) I believe children under the age of 13 are not allowed to use PLayonline services. Correct me if I'm wrong. And I'd hope by today's day and age those above the age of 13 would be more mature and more educated than to dislike someone for their sexual preference.
/sigh...
47 posts
Quote:
Quote:Yeah same as Psylight, born again Christian here. This is gonna rub some people wrong but here are my thoughts...
In FFXI there is a homosexual population, but I'm willing to bet that most of the population is not. That being said I dont think SE wants to be responsible for have the gay population reflecting their beliefs on the smaller kids in the game(age 5-18 or so). You may not think of it as a big deal but if smaller kids are raised around a homosexual setting they will reflect what they see, therefore pissing their straight parents/guardians off for in turn "turning their child gay." Now if such were to happen, the parents could possibly sue SE and cause a big ruckus about it.
Not saying that gay is wrong(which I beleive but I don't force my opinions on other people) but other people who grew up in a normal society may not agree with the beliefs and therefore blame the game.
I'm Kye of the Leviathan server and I am appalled at your remark. I didn't even bother reading the rest of the comments that are like yours so I'll just address this in response to your remark.
1.) Being turned gay? I don't think that is possible. I highly doubt a person of homosexual preference will turn "stright" if he is surrounded with nothing but "straight" people.
2.) Reflecting their beliefs to corrupt our youth? You honestly make me sick. Are you honestly trying to say that a less accepting and a more discriminative world is a better thing?? You my friend, are the epitome of what is wrong with our society.
3.) Normal society? Who the hell (excuse my language) are you to say what is normal? You are not some upper being, you do not decide what is normal.
4.) I believe children under the age of 13 are not allowed to use PLayonline services. Correct me if I'm wrong. And I'd hope by today's day and age those above the age of 13 would be more mature and more educated than to dislike someone for their sexual preference.
/sigh...
In FFXI there is a homosexual population, but I'm willing to bet that most of the population is not. That being said I dont think SE wants to be responsible for have the gay population reflecting their beliefs on the smaller kids in the game(age 5-18 or so). You may not think of it as a big deal but if smaller kids are raised around a homosexual setting they will reflect what they see, therefore pissing their straight parents/guardians off for in turn "turning their child gay." Now if such were to happen, the parents could possibly sue SE and cause a big ruckus about it.
Not saying that gay is wrong(which I beleive but I don't force my opinions on other people) but other people who grew up in a normal society may not agree with the beliefs and therefore blame the game.
I'm Kye of the Leviathan server and I am appalled at your remark. I didn't even bother reading the rest of the comments that are like yours so I'll just address this in response to your remark.
1.) Being turned gay? I don't think that is possible. I highly doubt a person of homosexual preference will turn "stright" if he is surrounded with nothing but "straight" people.
2.) Reflecting their beliefs to corrupt our youth? You honestly make me sick. Are you honestly trying to say that a less accepting and a more discriminative world is a better thing?? You my friend, are the epitome of what is wrong with our society.
3.) Normal society? Who the hell (excuse my language) are you to say what is normal? You are not some upper being, you do not decide what is normal.
4.) I believe children under the age of 13 are not allowed to use PLayonline services. Correct me if I'm wrong. And I'd hope by today's day and age those above the age of 13 would be more mature and more educated than to dislike someone for their sexual preference.
/sigh...
Ok lets not turn this into a Flame.. I understand where you both are coming from but ElvenRaiden you should check your facts before talking people under 13 are not allowed to play altho they still do SE doesn't consider them a part of the game. Now i know you didn't mean for it to come out rude but come on lets just keep are opinions to ourselves ya know.. being gay is wrong in somes eyes yes.. right in others that there opinion leave it at that who cares what people do in there lives none of our business ok.. i really don't want to see a huge fight over people's opinions wanna know why cause no matter how much you say there still gonna have there opinions so why can't can't people just get over there pride and let people be just because there not following or doing what you do.. Ok so neways
I wish you the very bestest Falke Scholar! *giggles* ^^
~Zoran Of slyph soon to be Kinrasha of.. well what ever world i get.. =/
>> Edit <<< sorry for typos somewhat tired =/
Edited, Mon Feb 21 23:43:16 2005 by Nutarus
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